Tyler Kemp
Well-Known Member
Kirby, a 300 grain TSX would surely do almost as well as a hardcast bullet? But I have shot hardcast and they are impressive.
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Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
TK,
Have you done any penetration tests comparing the 300 gr TSX to a heat treated 405, 420 or 440 gr hard cast bullet?
That TSX would retain alot of weight but it would turn nearly inside out at 2000 fps. Expansion is dramatic at these levels of velocity and this will limit penetration. The combination of large frontal area with the low bullet weight(sectional density) even if it did not loose any velocity would limit penetration DRAMATICALLY.
On top of that, retained bullet velocity during penetration is very low for the TSX.
For the hard cast bullets. Its been proven that there are very few jacketed bullets that will penetrate with them. In fact there have been many tests comparing big bore handguns with hard cast bullets against the most common african big game rifles out there including the 375 H&H, 458 Win Mag and 470 nitro.
With soft point bullets in all three of the rifle chamberings and hard cast in the handguns which were magnum loaded 45 Colt, 454, 475 and 500 line., the handguns penetrated from at least as deep to much deeper then the rifles.
When comparing solids or FMJs in the rifle rounds to the hard cast, they were nearly identical in penetration in spite of the rifle rounds dramatic energy and velocity advantage.
Simply put, when it comes to penetration on big game, a heavy hard cast bullet will do things many would never imagine they would.
They also found that after penetration, the slow starting hard cast bullets had higher retained velocity after exiting test media compared to the rifle bullets. Which means the bullets were traveling faster as they passed through the target compared to the rifle rounds. This tells us alot of why they penetrate well. This also adds to their on game performance which is far more impressive then most would ever think.
While the light bullets such as the 300 gr TSX look impressive on paper and on light game they can be extremely impressive, on heavy game they are not the way to go and it will only take some field tests for you to see this in a dramatic way.
I am not saying they will not kill game, I am not saying they will not kill big game, I am only saying there are better ways to do it.
Also, when you compare jacketed bullets to hard cast, if you take same bullet weight bullets, you will be able to drive the hard cast to 100-150 fps faster then the jacketed bullets. Why? The hard cast are easier to push through the bore and have a lower frictional coefficent then the jacketed bullets. This reduces pressure and allows you to load them to higher velocity with same chamber pressure as the jacketed bullets.
Have you done any penetration tests comparing the 300 gr TSX to a heat treated 405, 420 or 440 gr hard cast bullet?
That TSX would retain alot of weight but it would turn nearly inside out at 2000 fps. Expansion is dramatic at these levels of velocity and this will limit penetration. The combination of large frontal area with the low bullet weight(sectional density) even if it did not loose any velocity would limit penetration DRAMATICALLY.
On top of that, retained bullet velocity during penetration is very low for the TSX.
For the hard cast bullets. Its been proven that there are very few jacketed bullets that will penetrate with them. In fact there have been many tests comparing big bore handguns with hard cast bullets against the most common african big game rifles out there including the 375 H&H, 458 Win Mag and 470 nitro.
With soft point bullets in all three of the rifle chamberings and hard cast in the handguns which were magnum loaded 45 Colt, 454, 475 and 500 line., the handguns penetrated from at least as deep to much deeper then the rifles.
When comparing solids or FMJs in the rifle rounds to the hard cast, they were nearly identical in penetration in spite of the rifle rounds dramatic energy and velocity advantage.
Simply put, when it comes to penetration on big game, a heavy hard cast bullet will do things many would never imagine they would.
They also found that after penetration, the slow starting hard cast bullets had higher retained velocity after exiting test media compared to the rifle bullets. Which means the bullets were traveling faster as they passed through the target compared to the rifle rounds. This tells us alot of why they penetrate well. This also adds to their on game performance which is far more impressive then most would ever think.
While the light bullets such as the 300 gr TSX look impressive on paper and on light game they can be extremely impressive, on heavy game they are not the way to go and it will only take some field tests for you to see this in a dramatic way.
I am not saying they will not kill game, I am not saying they will not kill big game, I am only saying there are better ways to do it.
Also, when you compare jacketed bullets to hard cast, if you take same bullet weight bullets, you will be able to drive the hard cast to 100-150 fps faster then the jacketed bullets. Why? The hard cast are easier to push through the bore and have a lower frictional coefficent then the jacketed bullets. This reduces pressure and allows you to load them to higher velocity with same chamber pressure as the jacketed bullets.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
yorke-1,
If I came off as offended I truely apologize to you as that was not my intent. Just comparing numbers and opinions.
Again, if I seemed aggressive in my response to your comments and my comments offended you in any way, please accept my apology, that was not my intent in any way and you did not upset me in any way.
Sorry for coming off wrong.
If I came off as offended I truely apologize to you as that was not my intent. Just comparing numbers and opinions.
Again, if I seemed aggressive in my response to your comments and my comments offended you in any way, please accept my apology, that was not my intent in any way and you did not upset me in any way.
Sorry for coming off wrong.
No worries Fiftydriver. No offense taken. I agree that you just can't beat the heavy hardcast bullets for sheer penetration, no matter what caliber they're in. They just keep on going. Besides, nothing rings the steel gong like a nice heavy bullet. It sounds like a freight train hit it.
Tyler Kemp
Well-Known Member
You're right Kirby. Depending on the game being hunted I'd most likely rather have the TSX. I'm not for taking iffy shots, even if a hardcast is going to get through the vitals. They leave mostly a straight line wound channel. I shot a coyote with my 45-70 and subsonic cast loads, and it ran a ways...and died. But the bullet didn't expand, and didn't penetrate through. (started facing at me, through front left leg, ended up in right back leg) I think an expanding bullet would be better on smaller (and possibly medium game) as long as you take a good shot.
Sorry for being a bit combative, didn't mean it to come off that way either.
When I said do almost as well, I meant as a combination of penetration and expansion. Both have their pros and cons, and different uses depending on the game.
Sorry for being a bit combative, didn't mean it to come off that way either.
When I said do almost as well, I meant as a combination of penetration and expansion. Both have their pros and cons, and different uses depending on the game.
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Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
TK,
What bullets were you using in your sub sonic loads that failed topenetrate the yote?
I only recommend the LBT designed bullets. The WFN is in my opinion the best for big game. In all the penetration tests I have done and all the big game I have harvested with these bullets in calibers from 357 up to 50, I have always found them to displace AT LEAST as much tissue as any jacketed bullet because of their very large frontal area flat point. There is no round to it at all, just a flat that ends in a sharp squared off edge.
This acts as a plow if you will forcing tissue off to the side as the bullets pass through a target. In fact they displace tissue much more aggressively then any expanding jacketed bullet I have tested because the face of the bullet remains flat and sharp edged where as a mushroomed bullet is much more rounded in shape.
The heat treatment of these bullets are what make them special in my opinion. I recommend Cast Performance bullets for most of my big bore customers. They are hard enough to handle any impact on big game and not distort in shape yet are not so hard that they are brittle. They simply will not shatter on impact with anything.
Also, they use a gas check on most of their bullets which allows you to drive them to much higher velocities as well as retain accuracy with very little if any leading of the bore.
Your comments about your coyote hunt confuse me a bit, I have never seen this limited velocity with a quality hard cast bullet before. I am reminded of three specific big game hunts I have used these bullets on. One was an exotic sheep hunt using my 50 Action Express Encore, 15" barrel. I was driving the 440 gr WFNGC to right at 1200 fps which was a very comfortable load in that handgun. We finally caught up to a herd of good rams after a day of chasing them and crawled up to a range of 136 yards. I wanted to get closer but they winded us and the herd turned at attention just long enough to put one of those bullets dead center on the chest of a good Black Hawiian(sp?) that turned and was facing head onto us. At the shot he simply fell back over the ledge he was standing on. When we got up to him he had not traveled more then 10 yards. THe bullet landed dead center and fully penetrated the ram, roughly 30" and also destroyed the right hit joint on the way out.
Another hunt was with the same handgun hunting my tree stand down on the river for whitetails. At 35 yards a nice fat freezer doe came out and I waited until she stood perfectly broadside. THe big 440 gr WFN caught her just behind both shoulder. Only bone hit was a rib on exit. She fell on her nose at the shot. This is the first time I had ever seen a big game animal fall to a shot that did not impact heavy support bone or central nervous system. I was truely impressed.
THe last hunt was out of the same treestand a couple years later on another whitetail doe. This one was with my 480 Ruger shooting the 425 gr WFNGC at 1150 fps. The shot was 40 yards quartering toward me. THe shot landed center on the shoulder knuckle and penetrated and exited just ahead of the offside ham. Because of the shoulder angle I was able to recover that bullet after it had penetrated nearly a foot of hard packed ground. Other then the rifling engraving and some very slight abrasions on the meplate, it could have been loaded again. That buck took three steps and fell over dead as well.
I have seen this with most of my big game I have taken with handguns. Yes, its not uncommon to see them run a bit but I have never had one run more then 50 yards with a well placed shot. That is certainly not to say it can not happen.
Makes me wonder though what type of bullets you were using and what design they had on the meplat, round nose or flat point. Get the biggest flat point you can get and you will be amazed how they will outperform jacketed bullets in nearly every catagory.
Take care,
What bullets were you using in your sub sonic loads that failed topenetrate the yote?
I only recommend the LBT designed bullets. The WFN is in my opinion the best for big game. In all the penetration tests I have done and all the big game I have harvested with these bullets in calibers from 357 up to 50, I have always found them to displace AT LEAST as much tissue as any jacketed bullet because of their very large frontal area flat point. There is no round to it at all, just a flat that ends in a sharp squared off edge.
This acts as a plow if you will forcing tissue off to the side as the bullets pass through a target. In fact they displace tissue much more aggressively then any expanding jacketed bullet I have tested because the face of the bullet remains flat and sharp edged where as a mushroomed bullet is much more rounded in shape.
The heat treatment of these bullets are what make them special in my opinion. I recommend Cast Performance bullets for most of my big bore customers. They are hard enough to handle any impact on big game and not distort in shape yet are not so hard that they are brittle. They simply will not shatter on impact with anything.
Also, they use a gas check on most of their bullets which allows you to drive them to much higher velocities as well as retain accuracy with very little if any leading of the bore.
Your comments about your coyote hunt confuse me a bit, I have never seen this limited velocity with a quality hard cast bullet before. I am reminded of three specific big game hunts I have used these bullets on. One was an exotic sheep hunt using my 50 Action Express Encore, 15" barrel. I was driving the 440 gr WFNGC to right at 1200 fps which was a very comfortable load in that handgun. We finally caught up to a herd of good rams after a day of chasing them and crawled up to a range of 136 yards. I wanted to get closer but they winded us and the herd turned at attention just long enough to put one of those bullets dead center on the chest of a good Black Hawiian(sp?) that turned and was facing head onto us. At the shot he simply fell back over the ledge he was standing on. When we got up to him he had not traveled more then 10 yards. THe bullet landed dead center and fully penetrated the ram, roughly 30" and also destroyed the right hit joint on the way out.
Another hunt was with the same handgun hunting my tree stand down on the river for whitetails. At 35 yards a nice fat freezer doe came out and I waited until she stood perfectly broadside. THe big 440 gr WFN caught her just behind both shoulder. Only bone hit was a rib on exit. She fell on her nose at the shot. This is the first time I had ever seen a big game animal fall to a shot that did not impact heavy support bone or central nervous system. I was truely impressed.
THe last hunt was out of the same treestand a couple years later on another whitetail doe. This one was with my 480 Ruger shooting the 425 gr WFNGC at 1150 fps. The shot was 40 yards quartering toward me. THe shot landed center on the shoulder knuckle and penetrated and exited just ahead of the offside ham. Because of the shoulder angle I was able to recover that bullet after it had penetrated nearly a foot of hard packed ground. Other then the rifling engraving and some very slight abrasions on the meplate, it could have been loaded again. That buck took three steps and fell over dead as well.
I have seen this with most of my big game I have taken with handguns. Yes, its not uncommon to see them run a bit but I have never had one run more then 50 yards with a well placed shot. That is certainly not to say it can not happen.
Makes me wonder though what type of bullets you were using and what design they had on the meplat, round nose or flat point. Get the biggest flat point you can get and you will be amazed how they will outperform jacketed bullets in nearly every catagory.
Take care,
Tyler Kemp
Well-Known Member
Here's the bullet. It is traveling over 900 fps, but less than whatever the speed it would be supersonic at my location.
I thought it was cast performance, but it has no gas check and the nose profile is different. The local gun shop had them in bags of $100 for $10 that said the caliber, weight, and "Cast Performance" on them. They are hard enough I cannot scratch them with my fingernail, like some lead bullets.
I thought it was cast performance, but it has no gas check and the nose profile is different. The local gun shop had them in bags of $100 for $10 that said the caliber, weight, and "Cast Performance" on them. They are hard enough I cannot scratch them with my fingernail, like some lead bullets.
Tyler I would use a wide flat point hard cast over a 300 TSX any day of the week and twicew on Sundays.
Thisis the exit in the rib cage of a 6X7 bull Elk with a truncaqted cone flat point that is 78% of the bullets diameter at 950 FPS muzzle velocity
I am holding a 300 Win for size comparison
If you will forget thoses itty bitty flat point bullets that you showed in your picture, then you will see some awesome results. As far as the Coyotte running I have seen the same with a 300 Win, a 223 or 22-50 puts them down faster on average
Use a flat point simular to these
Kirby is giving you excellent advice, if you do not want to take it then that's your decision
Thisis the exit in the rib cage of a 6X7 bull Elk with a truncaqted cone flat point that is 78% of the bullets diameter at 950 FPS muzzle velocity
I am holding a 300 Win for size comparison
If you will forget thoses itty bitty flat point bullets that you showed in your picture, then you will see some awesome results. As far as the Coyotte running I have seen the same with a 300 Win, a 223 or 22-50 puts them down faster on average
Use a flat point simular to these
Kirby is giving you excellent advice, if you do not want to take it then that's your decision
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
TK,
The pic of the bullets you used tells why you had the results you did, basically, very little frontal area on that flat. These are bullets designed for the older 45-70 loads or for longer range shooting.
If you look at the frontal area of the bullets that JWP475 posted, most of those bullets will have twice the frontal area on the meplat as the bullets you were using and the WFN will have even more then that.
At low velocity, two things are key, frontal area and the bullets integrity to resist deformation.
In my testing of these hard cast designs, most of which John included in his picture, the LMN penetrated the deepest on average. The WFN displaced the most tissue of these designs. Also, other things to consider at least in handguns, often the LMN designs will have stability issued at longer range because of their increased nose length. The WFN seldom have this problem because of their shorter length.
At times I have witnessed the LMN and LFN bullets to have a tendency to tumble a bit more often then the WFN. Not a chronic problem but I have seen it. I have never seen a WFN tumble after impact.
My personal favorite is the WFN simply because they work in most firearms because of their shorter length, I have never seen any stability issues at longer range and they displace more tissue then the other designs. Yes, they penetrate SLIGHTLY less then the other designs, thats when you just add 20-30 grains of bullet weight and that makes up for that issue with more momentum on target.
The pic of the bullets you used tells why you had the results you did, basically, very little frontal area on that flat. These are bullets designed for the older 45-70 loads or for longer range shooting.
If you look at the frontal area of the bullets that JWP475 posted, most of those bullets will have twice the frontal area on the meplat as the bullets you were using and the WFN will have even more then that.
At low velocity, two things are key, frontal area and the bullets integrity to resist deformation.
In my testing of these hard cast designs, most of which John included in his picture, the LMN penetrated the deepest on average. The WFN displaced the most tissue of these designs. Also, other things to consider at least in handguns, often the LMN designs will have stability issued at longer range because of their increased nose length. The WFN seldom have this problem because of their shorter length.
At times I have witnessed the LMN and LFN bullets to have a tendency to tumble a bit more often then the WFN. Not a chronic problem but I have seen it. I have never seen a WFN tumble after impact.
My personal favorite is the WFN simply because they work in most firearms because of their shorter length, I have never seen any stability issues at longer range and they displace more tissue then the other designs. Yes, they penetrate SLIGHTLY less then the other designs, thats when you just add 20-30 grains of bullet weight and that makes up for that issue with more momentum on target.
sunshinegirl
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 11, 2008
- Messages
- 63
This what I got back from BFR on whether the Buffalo Bore 45-70 ammo can be used in their pistol. Buffalo Bore says these are meant for lever action rifles, and produce 2300 FPS. From what I read so far, the 10 barrel looses about 400 FPS from rifle loads. I am going to drop BB a note , and ask them what they think.
The BFR 45/70 will handle:
-SAAMI maximum pressure is 30,000 PSI
-Model 1886 Winchester loads
-The #2 loads in most manuals
But do not use loads for the Ruger #1.
I am sorry we do not offer any reloading information since we do not
recommend reloading in any of our products. Any use of reloads
(problems caused by them) null and void the warranty on any MRI product.
However, if you are going to reload we suggest you strictly follow all
safe reloading information in a good up to date reloading manual. If
you need further assistance please contact our Customer Service
Department Monday-Friday, 8:30-4:30 CST at 1-763-574-1868. Thank you.
The BFR 45/70 will handle:
-SAAMI maximum pressure is 30,000 PSI
-Model 1886 Winchester loads
-The #2 loads in most manuals
But do not use loads for the Ruger #1.
I am sorry we do not offer any reloading information since we do not
recommend reloading in any of our products. Any use of reloads
(problems caused by them) null and void the warranty on any MRI product.
However, if you are going to reload we suggest you strictly follow all
safe reloading information in a good up to date reloading manual. If
you need further assistance please contact our Customer Service
Department Monday-Friday, 8:30-4:30 CST at 1-763-574-1868. Thank you.
