So what?
The fact you fireformed the case and then sized it means you work hardened it by 60%. It is now a different case than what you started with. Annealing will restore the hardness and bullet pull.
Better accuracy with Virgin Brass?
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So what?
The fact you fireformed the case and then sized it means you work hardened it by 60%. It is now a different case than what you started with. Annealing will restore the hardness and bullet pull.
bigedp51
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How did you come up with the 60% figure?
Work hardening of the neck depends on how far the neck expands when fired and how much the neck is reduced in diameter when sized. And I have never seen any published testing figures on this.
At Benchrest Central and Accurate Shooter you have shooters saying they anneal every time the case is fired and others who say they never anneal.
Below a chart on annealing .223 cases showing case neck failures, and there is very little difference until the 13th loading. If your 60% figure was correct then the second firing would be 120% and you would have a split neck. And without a Rockwell hardness tester anything said is just a WAG.
https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=42&t=430158
"Any reloader who's been around the block for even a little while knows that brass does not last forever. Eventually it fails if it is fired enough times. One way it can fail is that the necks become brittle and split. One way to cure that problem is to anneal the necks every few firings. There is quite a bit of misinformation floating around regarding what annealing is, and how it should be done. The aim of this article is to shed a little light on the whats and whys of the science of cartridge brass annealing."
The Science of Cartridge Brass Annealing
The Science Behind Annealing Brass Cases
And below Larry Willis only anneals 1 or 2 times during 20 reloadings.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f28/how-often-anneal-brass-31565/
I don't know about the science of annealing but from personal experience it works. That said for it to be effective it has to be done right. I believe many of the do-it-yourself methods I see on these shooting forums are inconsistent at best.
Now it might extend the life of your brass but that is not why I do it. If you were to take a few of your fired cases that had been fired 5 or 10 times without annealing and annealed them. then resized them and some unannealed cases out of the same group and loaded them up when you were seating your bullets you would definitely feel the difference. Feels like seating in brand new lapua brass. The neck tension has got to be more consistent.
I anneal every 3 to 5 firings.
Now it might extend the life of your brass but that is not why I do it. If you were to take a few of your fired cases that had been fired 5 or 10 times without annealing and annealed them. then resized them and some unannealed cases out of the same group and loaded them up when you were seating your bullets you would definitely feel the difference. Feels like seating in brand new lapua brass. The neck tension has got to be more consistent.
I anneal every 3 to 5 firings.
How did you come up with the 60% figure?
Work hardening of the neck depends on how far the neck expands when fired and how much the neck is reduced in diameter when sized. And I have never seen any published testing figures on this.
At Benchrest Central and Accurate Shooter you have shooters saying they anneal every time the case is fired and others who say they never anneal.
Below a chart on annealing .223 cases showing case neck failures, and there is very little difference until the 13th loading. If your 60% figure was correct then the second firing would be 120% and you would have a split neck. And without a Rockwell hardness tester anything said is just a WAG.
https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=42&t=430158
"Any reloader who's been around the block for even a little while knows that brass does not last forever. Eventually it fails if it is fired enough times. One way it can fail is that the necks become brittle and split. One way to cure that problem is to anneal the necks every few firings. There is quite a bit of misinformation floating around regarding what annealing is, and how it should be done. The aim of this article is to shed a little light on the whats and whys of the science of cartridge brass annealing."
The Science of Cartridge Brass Annealing
The Science Behind Annealing Brass Cases
And below Larry Willis only anneals 1 or 2 times during 20 reloadings.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f28/how-often-anneal-brass-31565/
By reading the literature that came with my annealer.
No, you would not get a split neck on the second firing, but 120% hardness does not cause necks to split.
At what hardness do necks split? In my experience this happens between 10-12 firings. I dunno what the hardness is at that point.
What I do know is that when I seat a bullet in an annealed neck and then pull that bullet and then size the case and reseat that bullet the neck gets harder. That little bit of sizing increases the rate of springback. So fireforming/resizing can increase hardness by 60%.
At what hardness do necks split? In my experience this happens between 10-12 firings. I dunno what the hardness is at that point.
What I do know is that when I seat a bullet in an annealed neck and then pull that bullet and then size the case and reseat that bullet the neck gets harder. That little bit of sizing increases the rate of springback. So fireforming/resizing can increase hardness by 60%.
So I went back and reread the literature and I was wrong. It's not 60% per reload cycle, more like 20%. Two to three reloads increase hardness by 60%.
But, the fact remains that a reloaded case shoots different than a virgin case. I see this with Lapua 308 brass all the time. Virgin brass shoots teeny groups but 1x small base FL sized brass barely gives half MOA. And you can play with neck bushings all day without success. What's different? The neck hardness as well as the neck/shoulder junction.
But, the fact remains that a reloaded case shoots different than a virgin case. I see this with Lapua 308 brass all the time. Virgin brass shoots teeny groups but 1x small base FL sized brass barely gives half MOA. And you can play with neck bushings all day without success. What's different? The neck hardness as well as the neck/shoulder junction.
TwoMore
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i think that the amount the neck grows in the chamber and where you are sizing to has more to do with the brass working hardning, i have a 223 wssm that will split necks on seconds if you dont anneal because it has a huge neck 
and a no turn .317 necked 7mm wsm that almost never gets the brass annealed. i do know one thing when you start to turn necks and figuring out the neck tension this affects accuracy for me and know when i get out of my velocity node they open up.. be interesting to know what the velocity is between the first firing and second is
and a no turn .317 necked 7mm wsm that almost never gets the brass annealed. i do know one thing when you start to turn necks and figuring out the neck tension this affects accuracy for me and know when i get out of my velocity node they open up.. be interesting to know what the velocity is between the first firing and second is barefooter56
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MTLIVIN,
Many Benchrest shooters when fire forming brass have experienced the same thing.
bigedp51
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barefooter56
Are you saying the accuracy will improve after the case has been fired a few more times?
barefooter56
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I was responding to the first post in the string on page 1. When I was with Sinclair International I had many phone calls and even remarks from the guys on the staff that shot Benchrest on how they couldn't believe the groups they got fire forming the 6PPC brass. Ive had the same happen with LAPUA .308 brass for my PALMA rifle. Even using new brass with my competiton load . May be the way the brass "blows out" or the pressure or both. Never really looked into it. Wasen't broke so I didn't fix it.
Just my experience for what its worth.
Mikecr
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There is no reason to suspect an annealing issue with the situation described. And Neck cleanliness will not cause described. In fact, neck cleanliness changes nothing other than bullet seating force.
The bottom line is that it's normal for results to change from new to fire formed brass, and that reloaded brass is not new, and never will be again.
So the reloading object is not to figure out a cosmic abstract in shooting new brass, but to figure out how to get your reloaded brass shooting it's best.
I call it load development.
The bottom line is that it's normal for results to change from new to fire formed brass, and that reloaded brass is not new, and never will be again.
So the reloading object is not to figure out a cosmic abstract in shooting new brass, but to figure out how to get your reloaded brass shooting it's best.
I call it load development.
MTLIVIN
Well-Known Member
So it sounds like you guys aren't too concerned with groups until the brass is fire formed, although they sometimes shoot exceptionally well. This is a first for me, and I just never put much thought into fire forming a SAMMI spec cartridge. Likely didn't notice it with my other rifles, but when one load shoots a tiny ragged hole its hard to not want to keep shooting tiny ragged holes!!
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If I could place all bullets into one hole with the new brass, and I couldn't develop a comparable load with fired brass, I suppose I'd consider buying new brass just for the single firing.
But I suspect you'll be able to duplicate the bugholes on target if you work at it for a bit. Like Mikecr says... load development. Give it some additional effort. Differing powder charges and bullet seating depths first. Then maybe different powders.
After that if it'll only shoot them all into the same hole with new brass - well I'd be tempted and willing to run new brass for the few rounds I send into large game animals on a yearly basis. But what happens with a different lot of brass? I doubt your rifle is so finicky that you won't find a load you can be happy with using fired brass.
But I suspect you'll be able to duplicate the bugholes on target if you work at it for a bit. Like Mikecr says... load development. Give it some additional effort. Differing powder charges and bullet seating depths first. Then maybe different powders.
After that if it'll only shoot them all into the same hole with new brass - well I'd be tempted and willing to run new brass for the few rounds I send into large game animals on a yearly basis. But what happens with a different lot of brass? I doubt your rifle is so finicky that you won't find a load you can be happy with using fired brass.
I wouldn't broadbrush like that.
Certain people posting in this thread aren't interested in solving your problem. They just want you to be like them. You want to know how to get your 1x fired case to shoot like your new case. There are two options: return the 1x case to factory specs or alter the load.
