Best copper or bronze mono-metal bullet for expansion?

[fordy]

Gday

Thanks choprzrul for the nudge I'll come to the lightweights like the 85hh on big critters later when time permits sorry

Arken7mm
On a comparison of mushroom vrs shedding
I've got plenty of data on the asiatic buff & scrubbies in Aussie & limited African & the 2 can somewhat be combined

Broadly the mushroom wether mono or c&c ( & to a way lesser degree of results of the dual core of solid shank lead front eg rhino solid shank north fork etc as these offer a overall better meplat across more bases )
The higher SD pills ( projectiles ) show there superiority against the lower SD pills in this design regardless of caliber

if a number Is wanted 3 is a good one to use as a base & higher doesn't hurt ( still need to be careful as even within brand you can get a slightly less SD pill to outperform the higher SD as basically that's down to the requirements of penertration needed & the wound channels obtained on those penertration lengths ,
Basically the velocity impact , size /shape of the meplat that the individual pill creates which dictates how effective that pill will be for the length of penetration & shot angles & resistances come in here also playing a role

Now the shedding
These ones are a little different as it's shown the advantages of dropping weight & increasing the speed gives better results & more consistent results for that type

So the SD of these shedding pills is better served below 3 ( sweetspots seem to be .25 to .285 but individual pill design plays a huge role here also )
It's also shown that caliber here is very important on these shedding & makeup of alloys also very important but more importantly design

375 cal is a good caliber to see the change occurring on importance of alloy used eg above this caliber it's shown better closer to the 3 sd mark if one wants copper especially the softer one like hammer but brass it's more in the sweetspots of the .25/.285 sd marks & you get to another level & that's all speed related below 375cal not many chamberings can push these softer alloys quick enough to cause issues & I've pushed pretty hard to 3300 ish impacts in 375 on buff

But one is strongly advised to research those shedding especially if the tip design ones on DG pills are to be used
Ceb
Hammer


But don't just dismiss the hammers on the no tip ones as they're are a few very good pills in the range of the hh& sh lines that had some very good results but penertration is one to look @ & twist is of utmost importance here & preform way better on the whole than the hht (3mm tip on bovines ) but once again calibre dependant & need to use appropriately on the critters one is pursuing & definitely don't look when things go right or the perfect critter angles as DG is often less than ideal so a pill that covers the most bases is the one to hone in on imo

For me that's ultimately been the shedding showing better results but I have also seen where you are better off staying with the old system of plus 3 SD pills in a mushroom pill & what's on current offer in 375 & below I'd stay with mushrooms unless a hydraulic system added prior to the hammers or if penetration is required look no further than the raptor but won't compete with a good true solid so choose wisely

above 375 the raptors have that @ present but room for improvement on all & tweaks done to these shedding show gains can still be made & look forward to those coming out but overall speed is your friend here & if one wants to stay with the normal velocities the old pills take some beating especially the likes of the dual cores of solid copper base & lead mushroom front but the raptors hold up pretty darn well @ modest impacts but excel as impact speeds are increased & the gap widens between the 2


Overall Drop weight increase speed & find a shedding that can get the petals to follow for about 3/4 of the penertration length & that type of pill has shown to be the most effective/ consistent pill on bovines
( sadly you guys don't have access to that type of shedding pill @ present especially 375down it's more important so it's a ing game until they come along )
be ok for other DG like the mushroom varieties but your limited on shot placement & the old soft & solid combination still holds true imo or today for me that's a shedding & solid combo in my Jeffery & I'm toying with what to use in 375 for a upcoming hunt in Mozambique in May for a mate( I'm luckily going on as a gun bearer )

in my Jeffery bolt 2 shedding & 2 solids for bovine
Elephant mmm I'm undecided on a shedding first up followed by solids as those guys are another level & I like to prepare for worst but I'm a ticking

Hippo don't matter as most in water but on land a shedding followed by solid

Cats no solids
Cheers

 

[Arken7mm]

Gday

Thanks choprzrul for the nudge I'll come to the lightweights like the 85hh on big critters later when time permits sorry

Arken7mm
On a comparison of mushroom vrs shedding
I've got plenty of data on the asiatic buff & scrubbies in Aussie & limited African & the 2 can somewhat be combined

Broadly the mushroom wether mono or c&c ( & to a way lesser degree of results of the dual core of solid shank lead front eg rhino solid shank north fork etc as these offer a overall better meplat across more bases )
The higher SD pills ( projectiles ) show there superiority against the lower SD pills in this design regardless of caliber

if a number Is wanted 3 is a good one to use as a base & higher doesn't hurt ( still need to be careful as even within brand you can get a slightly less SD pill to outperform the higher SD as basically that's down to the requirements of penertration needed & the wound channels obtained on those penertration lengths ,
Basically the velocity impact , size /shape of the meplat that the individual pill creates which dictates how effective that pill will be for the length of penetration & shot angles & resistances come in here also playing a role

Now the shedding
These ones are a little different as it's shown the advantages of dropping weight & increasing the speed gives better results & more consistent results for that type

So the SD of these shedding pills is better served below 3 ( sweetspots seem to be .25 to .285 but individual pill design plays a huge role here also )
It's also shown that caliber here is very important on these shedding & makeup of alloys also very important but more importantly design

375 cal is a good caliber to see the change occurring on importance of alloy used eg above this caliber it's shown better closer to the 3 sd mark if one wants copper especially the softer one like hammer but brass it's more in the sweetspots of the .25/.285 sd marks & you get to another level & that's all speed related below 375cal not many chamberings can push these softer alloys quick enough to cause issues & I've pushed pretty hard to 3300 ish impacts in 375 on buff

But one is strongly advised to research those shedding especially if the tip design ones on DG pills are to be used
Ceb
Hammer


But don't just dismiss the hammers on the no tip ones as they're are a few very good pills in the range of the hh& sh lines that had some very good results but penertration is one to look @ & twist is of utmost importance here & preform way better on the whole than the hht (3mm tip on bovines ) but once again calibre dependant & need to use appropriately on the critters one is pursuing & definitely don't look when things go right or the perfect critter angles as DG is often less than ideal so a pill that covers the most bases is the one to hone in on imo

For me that's ultimately been the shedding showing better results but I have also seen where you are better off staying with the old system of plus 3 SD pills in a mushroom pill & what's on current offer in 375 & below I'd stay with mushrooms unless a hydraulic system added prior to the hammers or if penetration is required look no further than the raptor but won't compete with a good true solid so choose wisely

above 375 the raptors have that @ present but room for improvement on all & tweaks done to these shedding show gains can still be made & look forward to those coming out but overall speed is your friend here & if one wants to stay with the normal velocities the old pills take some beating especially the likes of the dual cores of solid copper base & lead mushroom front but the raptors hold up pretty darn well @ modest impacts but excel as impact speeds are increased & the gap widens between the 2


Overall Drop weight increase speed & find a shedding that can get the petals to follow for about 3/4 of the penertration length & that type of pill has shown to be the most effective/ consistent pill on bovines
( sadly you guys don't have access to that type of shedding pill @ present especially 375down it's more important so it's a ing game until they come along )
be ok for other DG like the mushroom varieties but your limited on shot placement & the old soft & solid combination still holds true imo or today for me that's a shedding & solid combo in my Jeffery & I'm toying with what to use in 375 for a upcoming hunt in Mozambique in May for a mate( I'm luckily going on as a gun bearer )

in my Jeffery bolt 2 shedding & 2 solids for bovine
Elephant mmm I'm undecided on a shedding first up followed by solids as those guys are another level & I like to prepare for worst but I'm a ticking

Hippo don't matter as most in water but on land a shedding followed by solid

Cats no solids
Cheers

fordy, thank you for that, very informative.

I have a 375 RUM that I'm putting together for a dangerous game rifle with a 26" inch barrel 1:8" twist. I can quickly swap in a 29" inch barrel or a 22" inch because I have the Terminus Zeus Quick Change barrel action feature so, it can be a bush gun or a long range hunter. I chose the 1:8" twist because I want to stick to mono-metals. Right now, I'm averaging 3,000 to 3,200fps for 270gr to 300gr mono metals. 3,300fps/5,685 ft./lbs for the 235gr Barnes TSX. It can be a dangerous game stopper up close or a plains game 600+ yard rifle all in one.

For 375 RUM, how fast can I push the mono-metals for them to perform optimally on game from cape buffalo and hippo to smaller plains game?

When it comes specifically to the Hammer bullets, what did you notice and experience with them that caused you to lack confidence in them? Was it one specific type of their bullets (HHT) or all of them across the board? Because, Hammer has the HHT, Stone Hammer and Hammer Hunter. According to Hammer's website, the Stone Hammer is a 80% weight retention bullet but, the Hammer Hunter is a 60%-70% weight retention bullet with better B.C. for longer range, and the Hammer HHT has the tip installed. You alluded to the HHT giving you some problems, what were they? Can I have confidence in using Hammer bullets on dangerous game or should I stick to the Cutting Edge Raptor/Maximus, Lehigh Defense and Barnes?

 

[fordy]

Gday Arken
Your welcome & love the 375rum myself
One thing I should've added to my previous posts on the use of solids is some PH don't like clients using solids @all & that is one to listen too in my eyes as they are the ones that ultimately you need to have a very good repor with & giving them doubt on their preference is one that's not usually a good thing not saying don't discuss having solids with you as more on why in a minute but I'd personally discuss this with them & explain why potentially you're thinking solids ( if you do of course is upto you )

fordy, thank you for that, very informative.

I have a 375 RUM that I'm putting together for a dangerous game rifle with a 26" inch barrel 1:8" twist. I can quickly swap in a 29" inch barrel or a 22" inch because I have the Terminus Zeus Quick Change barrel action feature so, it can be a bush gun or a long range hunter. I chose the 1:8" twist because I want to stick to mono-metals. Right now, I'm averaging 3,000 to 3,200fps for 270gr to 300gr mono metals. 3,300fps/5,685 ft./lbs for the 235gr Barnes TSX. It can be a dangerous game stopper up close or a plains game 600+ yard rifle all in one.

On above you've got plenty in the tank for buff you'll easily be in that sweetspot of plus 2700 impacts so room to come back a touch in muzzle velocity if you have any slight pressure signs or I should ask how many grains do you have up your sleeve before you see pressure starting as when I go to tropical areas to hunt 3gr under First pressure signs & I've had no issues of pressure creeping in that in my home state even though I done temp testing there's something about the climate that just changes things up even with some good temp stable powders

hippo realisticly accuracy is all that's needed as most are head shots in water but land if that's what you're after a good mono followed by good solid is definitely for me ( I try to break critters down from a 4x4 to a 4x2 )

For 375 RUM, how fast can I push the mono-metals for them to perform optimally on game from cape buffalo and hippo to smaller plains game?

On the buff & hippo
If one was to say use Barnes the 300 gr I've found no issues running that to 2900 impacts on buff where the 270 gr pills ran into a couple of issues of longer than expected runs that were on big bone impacts where off those big bones & in the ribs didn't matter how fast we pushed them all was good
Now on the likes of raptor it don't matter how fast you push those & most hammers are the same ( I leave hammers to the next part )
Maximus is not one I really go much on especially for the DG as they cut holes in things but runs are longer & Lehigh defense I've not used enough of those on dangerous game to give a good enough conclusion so I'll stay away from those

Raptors you'll be better using the TSG safari raptor & not the standard safari raptor & the solid regulated well in my case using the raptor

When it comes specifically to the Hammer bullets, what did you notice and experience with them that caused you to lack confidence in them? Was it one specific type of their bullets (HHT) or all of them across the board? Because, Hammer has the HHT, Stone Hammer and Hammer Hunter. According to Hammer's website, the Stone Hammer is a 80% weight retention bullet but, the Hammer Hunter is a 60%-70% weight retention bullet with better B.C. for longer range, and the Hammer HHT has the tip installed. You alluded to the HHT giving you some problems, what were they? Can I have confidence in using Hammer bullets on dangerous game or should I stick to the Cutting Edge Raptor/Maximus, Lehigh Defense and Barnes?

Hammers the 3 mm tip version you guys have is just acting weird & is not killing to a level I become accustomed to with hammers & especially for DG the hht has just shown it fails the pub test
Here's a link bean did up for me as I am not smart enough to post videos so hopefully that will show better what I'm talking about



Now the other hammers ok yes you got the weight retention off the website but reality is somewhat different to those % & results don't align with how SD should play a role in thinking that weight pill should do that so better to go of actuals of penertration & wound channel abilities of ea pill
& the best pill out of the 248hh 270SH 275sh 281hh & 329hh in my 7 twist ( 12 twist it's different) went to the 270SH
Now this pill also has a harder hitting effect on the critters & one of the best in that field on the different pill brands I've used on bovines
But it lacks one part that can take that pill to the next level & that's the penertration part ( it's not just overall penetration ability of a pill it's it's good wounding " coke can " as I call it ability on that wound path )
For which the 270 SH has repeatedly shown it's the best of the offerings hammer has available to you guys for bovines for consistency now I ran this pill regulated with a woodleigh 235 gr hydro but unfortunately woodleigh doesn't make these anymore & the 300 gr one still is close to that as being regulated but it's not quite there
& maybe something to think of if you choose to use a solid combo

The best was the ceb

Now to the why on I like solids on another level that I'd discuss with your ph is on plains game some of these critters are tiny & you put a hammer 270sh or the raptor tag 275 through a little critter like a duiker or steinbok it gets awful messy & shoulder mount is basically only option left if your lucky or a euro mount maybe it

So just something else to think on

My choice would be 2 pills to choose from in the
hammer 270SH
Ceb 275 tsg raptor
if I was to run solids in a combo ceb are the better combo in my experience as you'll not get the 235 hydro

Hope that helps & if unclear please ask

Cheers

 

[Jester560]

Barnes TTSX gets my vote

 

[Arken7mm]

Gday Arken
Your welcome & love the 375rum myself
One thing I should've added to my previous posts on the use of solids is some PH don't like clients using solids @all & that is one to listen too in my eyes as they are the ones that ultimately you need to have a very good repor with & giving them doubt on their preference is one that's not usually a good thing not saying don't discuss having solids with you as more on why in a minute but I'd personally discuss this with them & explain why potentially you're thinking solids ( if you do of course is upto you )


On above you've got plenty in the tank for buff you'll easily be in that sweetspot of plus 2700 impacts so room to come back a touch in muzzle velocity if you have any slight pressure signs or I should ask how many grains do you have up your sleeve before you see pressure starting as when I go to tropical areas to hunt 3gr under First pressure signs & I've had no issues of pressure creeping in that in my home state even though I done temp testing there's something about the climate that just changes things up even with some good temp stable powders

hippo realisticly accuracy is all that's needed as most are head shots in water but land if that's what you're after a good mono followed by good solid is definitely for me ( I try to break critters down from a 4x4 to a 4x2 )

On the buff & hippo
If one was to say use Barnes the 300 gr I've found no issues running that to 2900 impacts on buff where the 270 gr pills ran into a couple of issues of longer than expected runs that were on big bone impacts where off those big bones & in the ribs didn't matter how fast we pushed them all was good
Now on the likes of raptor it don't matter how fast you push those & most hammers are the same ( I leave hammers to the next part )
Maximus is not one I really go much on especially for the DG as they cut holes in things but runs are longer & Lehigh defense I've not used enough of those on dangerous game to give a good enough conclusion so I'll stay away from those

Raptors you'll be better using the TSG safari raptor & not the standard safari raptor & the solid regulated well in my case using the raptor



Hammers the 3 mm tip version you guys have is just acting weird & is not killing to a level I become accustomed to with hammers & especially for DG the hht has just shown it fails the pub test
Here's a link bean did up for me as I am not smart enough to post videos so hopefully that will show better what I'm talking about



Now the other hammers ok yes you got the weight retention off the website but reality is somewhat different to those % & results don't align with how SD should play a role in thinking that weight pill should do that so better to go of actuals of penertration & wound channel abilities of ea pill
& the best pill out of the 248hh 270SH 275sh 281hh & 329hh in my 7 twist ( 12 twist it's different) went to the 270SH
Now this pill also has a harder hitting effect on the critters & one of the best in that field on the different pill brands I've used on bovines
But it lacks one part that can take that pill to the next level & that's the penertration part ( it's not just overall penetration ability of a pill it's it's good wounding " coke can " as I call it ability on that wound path )
For which the 270 SH has repeatedly shown it's the best of the offerings hammer has available to you guys for bovines for consistency now I ran this pill regulated with a woodleigh 235 gr hydro but unfortunately woodleigh doesn't make these anymore & the 300 gr one still is close to that as being regulated but it's not quite there
& maybe something to think of if you choose to use a solid combo

The best was the ceb

Now to the why on I like solids on another level that I'd discuss with your ph is on plains game some of these critters are tiny & you put a hammer 270sh or the raptor tag 275 through a little critter like a duiker or steinbok it gets awful messy & shoulder mount is basically only option left if your lucky or a euro mount maybe it

So just something else to think on

My choice would be 2 pills to choose from in the
hammer 270SH
Ceb 275 tsg raptor
if I was to run solids in a combo ceb are the better combo in my experience as you'll not get the 235 hydro

Hope that helps & if unclear please ask

Cheers

fordy, thank you.

You mentioned you're using a 1:7" twist rate for your barrel, that's for the 375 H&H right? I currently have a 1:8" twist for my 375 RUM. If I were to go to a 1:7" twist will I notice any differences in performance with the mono-metals? What are the benefits/advantages of a 1:7" twist for the 375?

 

[fordy]

fordy, thank you.

You mentioned you're using a 1:7" twist rate for your barrel, that's for the 375 H&H right? I currently have a 1:8" twist for my 375 RUM. If I were to go to a 1:7" twist will I notice any differences in performance with the mono-metals? What are the benefits/advantages of a 1:7" twist for the 375?

Gday arken

Sorry for my lack of clarity
My 1in 7 twist is on my 375rum
I had a 12 twist on it but cooked that one lol
My 375h&h has the 1 in 12 in on it

If you were to go to a 1in 7 over a 1 in 8 I personally wouldn't think you would see any difference so I'd stay with the 1 in 8

The advantages of the 1 in 7 or your 1 in 8 are basically the same of giving you that little bit more insurance of a opening of the hp on the small hp of the hh lines & able to run the bigger /heavier pills like the 329 hh or 350 tsx & get those to open to a consistent pattern compared to the standard 12 twists on most rifles which even once you can achieve that in the faster twists the killing efficiency isn't as good as the smaller offerings especially more true for the hammer

The faster twists have shown to keep the pill in its terminal form straighter for longer even when a meplat is somewhat compromised & straightline penetration is a key factor on these bigger critters so use yours with confidence

You'll be fine with your 8 twist so save your money & spend that on some target practice ( rolling tyres are good ) & practice off a set of sticks is also good which even starting with a 22lr first off to familiarise yourself with them is a great start then move on up to your rum & it all becomes one & lastly on practice also practice offhand as that incredibly important if the need arises

Basically practice heaps & uncomfortable is good till it becomes comfortable then your good

Cheers