Best copper or bronze mono-metal bullet for expansion?

[RichCoyle]

No. Just run them hard and fast. We kill Cow elk with the 130 Barnes TTSX and the load I mentioned above, but we limit shots to 350 with it.

Look at McGuire bullets for your RUM. I'm testing their 168 now in my 300WSM.

In the 1990's I killed six elk. Haven't seen one since. The fastest kill was with a 7mm 130 Barnes. They included 7mm Nosler 160 and 175 partition and Nosler .375 260 partition.

I guess I need a guide.

 

[Arken7mm]

Are Lehigh Defense's bullets 100% lead free? I looked at their website and it gave a warning that says under the tab/link "Ammunition Purchase Notes"...

• WARNING: This product can expose you to chemicals including lead, which are known to the State of California to cause cancer and reproductive harm. For more information go to p65warnings.ca.gov.

.308 WINCHESTER | 152GR, LEHIGH DEFENSE CC, 20/BOX

Lehigh Controlled Chaos bullets offer the best of both worlds in ballistic performance.

lehighdefense.com

 

[QuietTexan]

With loaded ammo, the primer is the lead risk usually.

AFAIK Leigh is all 100% copper.

 

[Petey308]

Are Lehigh Defense's bullets 100% lead free? I looked at their website and it gave a warning that says under the tab/link "Ammunition Purchase Notes"...

• WARNING: This product can expose you to chemicals including lead, which are known to the State of California to cause cancer and reproductive harm. For more information go to p65warnings.ca.gov.

.308 WINCHESTER | 152GR, LEHIGH DEFENSE CC, 20/BOX

Lehigh Controlled Chaos bullets offer the best of both worlds in ballistic performance.

lehighdefense.com

Yes, and can be found here to certify they're California compliant:

Certified Nonlead Ammunition

The Department of Fish and Wildlife manages California's diverse fish, wildlife, and plant resources, and the habitats upon which they depend, for their ecological values and for their use and enjoyment by the public.

wildlife.ca.gov

 

[Arken7mm]

My Zastava M77 does not even stabilize the CEB Raptor 135gr. It will need a 1:8" twist...

.308 135gr ER (Extended Range) Raptor - 50ct

.308 135gr ER (Extended Range) Raptor monolithic lead-free hunting bullet. The ER (Extended Range) Raptor is a high-terminal-performance hunting bullet designed for use up to 600 yards.

cuttingedgebullets.com

I would like to start shooting mostly mono-metals for my rifles and a twist rate that can stabilize mono's from 130gr to 155gr.

Do any of you have any experiences using a 1:8" twist for 308 win rifles?

I want to set my Zastava M77 to hunt hogs with mono-metals.

 

[akmtnhnt]

My Zastava M77 does not even stabilize the CEB Raptor 135gr. It will need a 1:8" twist...

.308 135gr ER (Extended Range) Raptor - 50ct

.308 135gr ER (Extended Range) Raptor monolithic lead-free hunting bullet. The ER (Extended Range) Raptor is a high-terminal-performance hunting bullet designed for use up to 600 yards.

cuttingedgebullets.com

I would like to start shooting mostly mono-metals for my rifles and a twist rate that can stabilize mono's from 130gr to 155gr.

Do any of you have any experiences using a 1:8" twist for 308 win rifles?

I want to set my Zastava M77 to hunt hogs with mono-metals.

Cutting edge calls for a 1-12 for that bullet.

 

[Arken7mm]

Cutting edge calls for a 1-12 for that bullet.

I know but, Berger's and JBM's ballistics calculator says it's not stable.

A 1:8" twist barely stabilizes the 150gr Raptor at SG 2.0...

.308 150gr ER (Extended Range) Raptor - 50ct

.308 150gr ER (Extended Range) Raptor monolithic lead-free hunting bullet. The ER (Extended Range) Raptor is a high-terminal-performance hunting bullet designed for use up to 600 yards.

cuttingedgebullets.com

 

[JAYgs8163]

Call Cutting Edge

 

[akmtnhnt]

I know but, Berger's and JBM's ballistics calculator says it's not stable.

A 1:8" twist barely stabilizes the 150gr Raptor at SG 2.0...

.308 150gr ER (Extended Range) Raptor - 50ct

.308 150gr ER (Extended Range) Raptor monolithic lead-free hunting bullet. The ER (Extended Range) Raptor is a high-terminal-performance hunting bullet designed for use up to 600 yards.

cuttingedgebullets.com

Berger cannot calculate the stability of that bullet.

2.0 SG is now barely stable? Since when?

Are you putting the correct tip length in? Seems like no. I don't know what the length of the tip is on the CE raptor, but it looks LONG. Like .5in or so. Even if you put .25 in which I think is being ultra conservative from the picture, you still have a 1.8 SG with a 10 twist on that 150.

 

[Arken7mm]

Berger cannot calculate the stability of that bullet.

2.0 SG is now barely stable? Since when?

Are you putting the correct tip length in? Seems like no.

According to some on this forum and thread, for mono's you need at least a 2.0 SG. It's on page 5 of this thread.

 

[akmtnhnt]

According to some on this forum and thread, for mono's you need at least a 2.0 SG. It's on page 5 of this thread.

They're full of crap. There's some back and forth about terminal performance in certain monos with SG's under 2, but there's no mono that is unstable in flight at 2.0
My recommendation is if a mono needs that much stability, find another one. Because the rest don't.

 

[Arken7mm]

They're full of crap. There's some back and forth about terminal performance in certain monos with SG's under 2, but there's no mono that is unstable in flight at 2.0
My recommendation is if a mono needs that much stability, find another one. Because they rest don't.

I didn't say unstable at 2.0. It needs to be at minimum 2.0 SG.

 

[akmtnhnt]

I didn't say unstable at 2.0. It needs to be at minimum 2.0 SG.

No it doesn't. There's a reason the stability calculators have weight, length and diameter. This accounts for density. It literally is density.

 

[Arken7mm]

No it doesn't. There's a reason the stability calculators have weight, length and diameter. This accounts for density. It literally is density.

Just fyi, copper monos do not have the same density as lead and grain for grain are longer than their lead core equivalent. Because of this, they require a higher SG to become fully stable- specifically to keep the center of pressure sufficiently spaced ahead of the center of gravity of the bullet while in flight.

The minimum SG for a mono to be considered "fully stable" is 2.0

Good luck with your endeavor. Nothing wrong with continuing to use lead core bullets by the way.

I don't know how CEB/their ballistician determined the twist rate requirement, but the minimum SG of 2 for mono bullets is relatively new. Twist rate calculators like the Berger and JBM were designed for C&C bullets, and the minimum recommended stability is 1.5 to achieve the maximum BC. I do not think any of them made adjustments to their software. You can still use them, except the SG for C&Cs is >1.5 and for monos >2.

There was an article, video, and podcast with Bryan Litz (IIRC), but I cannot seem to find it at the moment. I am pretty sure @Petey308 has them and more information to share. He's an excellent source on this type of matter. On a side note, I try to get to an SG closer to 2 on my last 3 builds. For instance, below is .257 WBY propelling the 163 Chinchaga out of 22" 1:7" barrel.

View attachment 632171

Good luck!