Berger VLD .308 168grn minimum speed for hunting???

[squeeeeze]

I would like to know what the minimum speed I should be at to shoot at a game animal? I have drop charts with speed so trying to figure out my maximum shooting distance.

I called Beger and left a voice mail. While waiting for the return call I called back for a few hours and finally got through. I asked the gentleman, he said 1,400fps min. Then went on to ask me caliber, my fps, elevation, humidity, etc.... I tried to tell him this was all irrelevant and all I wanted was the min. fps. for a .308 168grn VLD. After all this he then told me 1,639fps then 1,000 ft lbs (maybe this means 168grn @ 1,639fps = 1,000'lbs?) So I am now more confused???

A day later a different gentleman returns voice mail and leaves me a message stating the min. fps is now 1,800fps min. for game hunting. Can anybody give me a straight answer? I hate to call back and get a different answer once again. This hunt I'll be hunting Mule Deer in AZ, but will use this gun from anything between Coues deer to Elk. Trying to determine what my maximum effective killing distance should be?

 

[The Surgeon]

I will try and help, but I need some information first.

1. What game animal are you going to be hunting?

2. With this bullet/round, what muzzle velocity are you getting out of your rifle?

3. What is the elevation that you will be hunting at? This will help me better determine this bullets performance.

4. What is your sigh height? This will help me with some other information.

I looked at Berger's web site and checked the BC of this bullet. I want to make sure I have the right bullet first. Is this bullet the Berger 168 gr Match Grade VLD Hunting?

The more accurate the informations is, the better I can help you.

 

[WildRose]

I would like to know what the minimum speed I should be at to shoot at a game animal? I have drop charts with speed so trying to figure out my maximum shooting distance.

I called Beger and left a voice mail cuz their tech line is almost impossible to get through to. They called back, left me a message, and said to call them back even though I left a detailed message. I called back, got recording so I left another detailed message with my question. While waiting for the return call I called back for 4 hours and finally got through. I asked the gentleman, he said 1,400fps min. Then went on to ask me caliber, my fps, elevation, humidity, etc.... I tried to tell him this was all irrelevant and all I wanted was the min. fps. for a .308 168grn VLD. After all this he then told me 1,639fps then 1,000 ft lbs (maybe this means 168grn @ 1,639fps?) So I am now more confused???

A day later a different gentleman returns my 2nd voice mail and leaves me a message stating the min. fps is now 1,800fps min. for game hunting. Can anybody give me a straight answer? I hate to call back and get a different answer once again. This hunt I'll be hunting Mule Deer in AZ, but will use this gun from anything between Coues deer to Elk. Trying to determine what my maximum effective killing distance should be?

They are telling you that for deer or larger sized game their bullet needs to be running at a given velocity to generate 1,000ft lbs of energy when it impacts the target because that is the minimum velocity/energy required for their bullet to perform properly.

Here's a simple ballistic calculator. Plug in your data and find the range at which the velocity falls to the point you break the 1,000lbs Energy limit. That is what they are telling you is your limit.

External Ballistics Calculator

Just plugging in some generic numbers of 2,600fps MV and .473 BC this one says your 1,000 ft/lbs energy limit is around 600yds.

Berger also has a ballistics program you can simply download and we have one here you can use as well.

 

[squeeeeze]

Thanks for the replies guys! It looks like I have my answer and it is 1,000ft lbs of energy which equates to 1,638fps, thanks for the calculator link. Looks like I'll be good out to 900yrds with 1,029' lbs. Was hoping I'd be good out to about 750 yards so I'm good!

Surgeon,
Mule Deer, for this hunt in a few weeks
Muzzle = 3,030fps
1.9" sight height
4,500 - 5,300' elevation
168 grain .473BC
.300WSM
Thank you.

 

[The Surgeon]

With your info and the calc that i have

@ 300 yards:

2395ft/lbs

@ 500 yards:

1858 ft/lbs

@ 700 yards:

1420 ft/lbs

@ 750 yards:

1324 ft/lbs

@ 800 yards:

1234 ft/lbs

@ 850 yards

1149 ft/lbs

@ 900 yards:

1069 ft/lbs

@ 950 yards:

994 ft/lbs

Pretty close to what you have.

 

[The Surgeon]

Have you looked at the ballistics on the Berger 185 gr match hunting VLD.

This bullet has a G1- BC of .549 and the G7 is .281.

I punched an estimated velocity of 2930 and it's pushing 1160 ft/lbs @ a grand.



At 750 yards it falls 104.7"

The 168 gr Berger falls 96.1 @ the same distance of 750 yards.

According to the computer/software

You might give the 190 gr a look also. I know you are pretty close to the hunt date. But, afterwards it might deserve a look and some field testing. You might find that the heavier bullets work better. Of course that would depend on what the gun likes and live data.

Good luck on the hunt. We better have some pic's of that monster mule when you get back. Let us know how it goes and be safe.

 

[4xforfun]

I still don't believe the original question has been answered. I believe he is asking about bullet performance (mushrooming/ opening up), and retained energy has nothing to do with bullet performance. Not that I disagree with the 1000 ft lb on deer/ 1500 on elk...ect...., but that is another topic!!

.338 cal 300 gr SMK......1200 fps = 1000 ft pounds
7mm cal 150 gr NBT......1750 FPS = 1000 ft pounds
224 cal 53 gr barns TSX.....2950 fps = 1000 ft pounds
20 cal 32 gr vmax....NEVER gets to 1000 ft pounds.

Does this mean that the vmax never performs as it is designed just because it fails to get to 1000 ft pounds?

Does this mean that the 300 gr SMK performs well just because it has 1000 ft pounds. Do you think that this bullet is going to "perform" like a hunting bullet...IE "open up/mushroom at 1200 fps?

Now, I don't know the answer either, but sombody, somewhere must have tested these bullets at reduced velocitys to see where they start to fail to "perform as designed".

 

[kcebcj]

I would like to know what the minimum speed I should be at to shoot at a game animal? I have drop charts with speed so trying to figure out my maximum shooting distance.

I called Beger and left a voice mail. While waiting for the return call I called back for a few hours and finally got through. I asked the gentleman, he said 1,400fps min. Then went on to ask me caliber, my fps, elevation, humidity, etc.... I tried to tell him this was all irrelevant and all I wanted was the min. fps. for a .308 168grn VLD. After all this he then told me 1,639fps then 1,000 ft lbs (maybe this means 168grn @ 1,639fps = 1,000'lbs?) So I am now more confused???

A day later a different gentleman returns voice mail and leaves me a message stating the min. fps is now 1,800fps min. for game hunting. Can anybody give me a straight answer? I hate to call back and get a different answer once again. This hunt I'll be hunting Mule Deer in AZ, but will use this gun from anything between Coues deer to Elk. Trying to determine what my maximum effective killing distance should be?

The recommended minimum impact speed for the Berger Hunting VLD is 1800 fps. The link is below.

.308 Winchester - Hunting Applications

 

[The Surgeon]

The recommended minimum impact speed for the Berger Hunting VLD is 1800 fps. The link is below.

.308 Winchester - Hunting Applications

The above pretty much covers the Berger.

According to Barnes :
FAQ | Barnes Bullets
1600 fps - 1800 fps

Do TSX Bullets always expand on game?
Because our TSX Bullets are solid copper and have a specially engineered nose cavity, it is nearly impossible for them not to expand. The cavity opens up as soon as hydraulic pressure is applied to the nose cavity. Once the bullet strikes flesh, it immediately opens, creating four razor-sharp petals that slice through tissue. Ballistic tests in gelatin show good bullet expansion within the first inch of penetration.



Hornady states that a minimum velocity for their V-Max and A-Max is 2000 fps.
Bullets - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

Nosler states 1800fps for the accu-bond.
Accubond - Nosler - Bullets, Ammunition, Rifles, Brass, Reloading Data, Hunting, Shooting, Reloading, Load Data

 

[The Surgeon]

Chuck Hawks

Hunting Bullet Guide
Part One : Caliber &Weight
Hunting Bullet Guide, Part One: Caliber and Weight

Chuck Hawks

Hunting Bullet Guide
Part Two : By Manufacturer

Hunting Bullet Guide, Part Two: By Manufacturer

 

[WildRose]

I still don't believe the original question has been answered. I believe he is asking about bullet performance (mushrooming/ opening up), and retained energy has nothing to do with bullet performance. Not that I disagree with the 1000 ft lb on deer/ 1500 on elk...ect...., but that is another topic!!

.338 cal 300 gr SMK......1200 fps = 1000 ft pounds
7mm cal 150 gr NBT......1750 FPS = 1000 ft pounds
224 cal 53 gr barns TSX.....2950 fps = 1000 ft pounds
20 cal 32 gr vmax....NEVER gets to 1000 ft pounds.

Does this mean that the vmax never performs as it is designed just because it fails to get to 1000 ft pounds?

Does this mean that the 300 gr SMK performs well just because it has 1000 ft pounds. Do you think that this bullet is going to "perform" like a hunting bullet...IE "open up/mushroom at 1200 fps?

Now, I don't know the answer either, but sombody, somewhere must have tested these bullets at reduced velocitys to see where they start to fail to "perform as designed".

Every bullet is designed for optimal performance for it's intended purposes at a given speed/energy.

The V Max is designed for maximum expansion at any speed and is not intended as a bullet to be used for anything other than target and varmint hunting as a result.

The original question which we did answer was in reference solely to the advice he'd been given by Berger, about Berger's.

 

[4xforfun]

Every bullet is designed for optimal performance for it's intended purposes at a given speed/energy.

The V Max is designed for maximum expansion at any speed and is not intended as a bullet to be used for anything other than target and varmint hunting as a result.

The original question which we did answer was in reference solely to the advice he'd been given by Berger, about Berger's.

Sorry, but Berger did not initialy answer his questions...they gave him 3 different answers....that is why he asked the question. Your answer.."...plug in your data and find the range at which the velocity falls to the point you break the 1000lbs energy limit"....the 1000 ft pounds of retained energy for deer theory. This theory is simply not valad for the question asked.

Berger says on thier website that ALL Berger hunting bullets need to be traviling 1800 FPS. This info was given to us in a link to Berger's website shared by Jim. Thus, my beloved 210 vld needs 1500 foot pounds to perform as desgined.....the 300 grn hybird needs around 2200 ft pounds to work as designed....ie...1800 fps. So much for the "1000 ft pounds of retained energy for deer" theory.

"we" didn't answer anything.....Jims link to bergers website was the ONLY answer to the initial question.

 

[Scot E]

The above pretty much covers the Berger.

According to Barnes :
FAQ | Barnes Bullets
1600 fps - 1800 fps

Do TSX Bullets always expand on game?
Because our TSX Bullets are solid copper and have a specially engineered nose cavity, it is nearly impossible for them not to expand. The cavity opens up as soon as hydraulic pressure is applied to the nose cavity. Once the bullet strikes flesh, it immediately opens, creating four razor-sharp petals that slice through tissue. Ballistic tests in gelatin show good bullet expansion within the first inch of penetration.



Hornady states that a minimum velocity for their V-Max and A-Max is 2000 fps.
Bullets - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

Nosler states 1800fps for the accu-bond.
Accubond - Nosler - Bullets, Ammunition, Rifles, Brass, Reloading Data, Hunting, Shooting, Reloading, Load Data

I think you misread the info for Hornady. Those numbers are recommended muzzle velocities not down range velocities for proper expansion. A-max's will expand much closer to 1000 fps than 2000 fps.

 

[WildRose]

I think you misread the info for Hornady. Those numbers are recommended muzzle velocities not down range velocities for proper expansion. A-max's will expand much closer to 1000 fps than 2000 fps.

Which is why hornady says not to use them for game. They are designed to blow up. They are intended solely as a varmint/target bullet.