KNOTFERSAIL
Well-Known Member
Accu-bond's and watch the animals drop in there shadows.....won't shoot anything else.
Berger bullet no expansion...why?
- Thread starter earl1704
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bigngreen
Well-Known Member
I've had more accubonds fail to impress me than Bergers!
KNOTFERSAIL
Well-Known Member
Fair enough......
I used an Accubond today and got some strange results.
Shot a whitetail buck at 100 yds with a 338-378 WM. Shot was higher than I wanted (found after the fact) but the deer dropped in its tracks and died. Didn't take a single step. In the field, I couldn't find entry or exit. Later that morning found both and both were bullet diameter.
During dressing, found bullet had gone in clean and taken out the spine and exited same size. Spine was shredded but very little other damage. I was surprised that the deer didn't live because the spinal cut was behind what I thought would be things like lung control.
I can't complain about the results, but I'm disappointed in the bullet performance. Based on exit alone, there was virtually no expansion even after hitting the spine.
Shot a whitetail buck at 100 yds with a 338-378 WM. Shot was higher than I wanted (found after the fact) but the deer dropped in its tracks and died. Didn't take a single step. In the field, I couldn't find entry or exit. Later that morning found both and both were bullet diameter.
During dressing, found bullet had gone in clean and taken out the spine and exited same size. Spine was shredded but very little other damage. I was surprised that the deer didn't live because the spinal cut was behind what I thought would be things like lung control.
I can't complain about the results, but I'm disappointed in the bullet performance. Based on exit alone, there was virtually no expansion even after hitting the spine.
earl1704
Well-Known Member
Brings up another question at what velocity will a bullet expand? Yes I know it depends but considering under 400 yds. are there tables for expansion speeds for different bullet types? Load slower or faster for higher percentage rate of expansion?
If velocity is a factor I would assume the manufacture would publish them but as of yet all I have found is "X bullet does everything for every situation" ok not quite .....but a lot seem to imply hit a moose in the hoof and it falls over dead!
So any velocity/expansion tables anyone knows of? This might be a place to start.......
If velocity is a factor I would assume the manufacture would publish them but as of yet all I have found is "X bullet does everything for every situation" ok not quite .....but a lot seem to imply hit a moose in the hoof and it falls over dead!
So any velocity/expansion tables anyone knows of? This might be a place to start.......
coyotezapper
Well-Known Member
This is how I modify the tips of Berger VLD, Hybrid, and OTM bullets, in the effort to help ensure each bullet will expand on game. The bullet on top is a 168gr 7mm Berger VLD. The bullet on the bottom is a 210gr .308 Berger VLD.
I modify the tips using the MCR Meplat Unforming Tool. Montour County Rifles
Most important in my opinion, is the use of the hollow-pointing - countersinking end mill/tool. This tool flares the interior of the tips of the jackets. It thins down the thickness at the leading edge of the jackets, but more importantly to my way of thinking, creates a larger diameter entrance to capture hydraulic pressure from meat/liquids as the bullet impacts the game animals.
Some in the past have stated don't mess with the tips. Now most say to ensure the tips are open. If you believe the tip configuration is an important aspect of bullet expansion, then my question is, why would anyone conclude that the non-uniform tips from the factory couldn't be improved upon with consistently uniform tips of a slightly different configuration?
We shoot only 1-4 large game animals a year with these bullets, normally speaking. I don't have extensive experience to proclaim these modified tips are the holy grail. Perhaps 8 of these bullets have impacted large game (dall sheep or caribou) over the past three years and all bullets expanded with soft tissue impacts - normally broadside thru the ribs. All I've read and learned about bullet expansion and bullet tip design tells me that modifying the tips in this fashion will enhance the odds that these bullets will expand on game animals - compared to the factory tips.
Why did I start modifying bullet tips like this? Already had the non-expanding experience. Looking to minimize the odds of a repeat performance.
+1. Perfect example of how to make them more reliable. I think this problem happens more on poorly placed shots that nobody will admit.
coyotezapper
Well-Known Member
Where you hit it says everything. Hit it in the same place with a Berger and I would be willing to bet the outcome would be similar. No bullet is perfect. Shot placement, shot placement.
coyotezapper
Well-Known Member
I won't shoot at an animal with a Berger, if at that distance the velocity is at or below 1800 fps. This is my opinion only. I already know when I go into the field at what distance I won't shoot.
Berger says the industry standard for proper bullet performance is 1800 fps velocity and 1100 ft lbs of energy. The bullet and load you listed should meet those standards to at least 500 yards.
Shot placement no doubt, but therein lies the dilemma. Going for the heart/lung shot, I'm wondering if the bullet might have poked a clean hole that would have left the deer running for quite some time. I still think I had some really dumb luck there if for no other reason than the deer was immobilized, but it still died almost immediately and I didn't have to put it through another shot.
No meat damage at all. Again, dumb luck for an inexperienced goofball like me.
coyotezapper
Well-Known Member
I may be different than most, I 'm not sure but with Berger bullets I aim for the shoulder. Bone and tissue helps expansion.
barefooter56
Well-Known Member
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earl1704,
SAMMI minimums for adequate bullet performance on game is 1800 feet per second AND 1100 foot pounds of force. Those are what we base our minimums on also .
FastBullets
Member
I agree totally. I think the discussion here should be about shot placement rather than bullet performance. My wife shoots a 257 WBY for big game because it is a gun she can control and make the bullet go where she wants it to. Evidence is the 5x5 she put away last sunday.
earl1704
Well-Known Member
The idea that a bullet MUST hit a bone or the RIGHT tissue is silly. A bullet will expand or should at a given velocity if it hits tissue, ballistic jell or a gallon jug of water, shoot a milk jug full of water and recover your bullet. I doesn't matter what type of tissue it hits. Shot placement decides if you get a swift kill IF the bullet does its job and expands. Its why we don't use full metal jackets bullets while hunting we don't just want to punch a hole we want the bullet to dump its energy in the animals cavity. The military uses FMJ but the bullets are inherently unstable; when they hit a target they are meant to tumble to cause damage e.g. dump their energy, not just pass through.
As I said in my original post the shots I took looked like an archery field point was shot through the elk very little exterior or interior damage. I put up to six shots into this elk none expanded all were pass through, had they expanded and dumped their energy inside the elks cavity as the Berger claims they would and should it would have been a more ethical kill even without perfect shot placement.
Shot placement absolutely is important but other issues are at play here. Only machine gunners can (or should) claim "accuracy by volume" of bullets sent to the target.
As I said in my original post the shots I took looked like an archery field point was shot through the elk very little exterior or interior damage. I put up to six shots into this elk none expanded all were pass through, had they expanded and dumped their energy inside the elks cavity as the Berger claims they would and should it would have been a more ethical kill even without perfect shot placement.
Shot placement absolutely is important but other issues are at play here. Only machine gunners can (or should) claim "accuracy by volume" of bullets sent to the target.
