Berger 6.5 130 VLD Hunting

[toddc]

I had a rough week last week with my Tikka 260 Remington and the above bullet. I loaded it to 2790 fps with one hole accuracy at 100 yards. I shot two deer last week and the results were terrible to say the least. First was a medium size 4 point at a lasered 176 yards. the shot was good but a little back of perfect. It was spotted by two friend with binoculars. The buck hunched up and almost dropped, then trotted into the woods. We gave it an hour and then tried to trail it. No blood what so ever. Plenty of hair, but nothing else. We never found any blood nor any sign of the deer.

The second was a nice 9 point shot a a lasered 213 yards. Again a buddy was spotting for me. The shot hit perfect broadside. The deer dropped and thrashed on the ground. Finally it rolled on its stomach. We were sure it was down for good. I was about to fire an insurance shot when it suddenly staggered to its feet and ran into the woods. We waited and hour and fifteen minutes and started trailing it. We never found a large pool of blood, but there was enough blood to easily trail it for at least a quarter mile. After that there was nothing. We got several dogs out to try and find it but nothing. We were never able to find any sign after that. Needless to say, I'm pretty disappointed in the performance of these bullets.

Both shots were good, with the second being almost perfect. I killed several deer in this area last year with a 25-06 and Sierra 117 bullets. Almost all dropped on the spot. the one that didn't left a blood trail that lead us directly to it. So, what other hunting bullets would you guys recommend for this type situation?

GPO I know its hard to lose an animal, and probably 10 times as hard to lose 2. However, I ran an outfitting business for many years and shot control for many years as well. I hunted for a living. Your post has a lot of clues in it for those who now what to look for. I personally tracked every deer that my customers shot over the years as well as my own. It's understandable that we as humans want to look for something to lay the blame on when things don't go right. The BULLET or cartridge is usually the first thing we blame unless we have a guide handy to blame.

Your post illustrates several things.

Deer #1.

Deer HUNCH when they are hit in the GUTS. Deer don't bleed MUCH when hit in the guts. Any deer you hit in the heart/lungs at 200 yds is not going to run very far with anything coming out of a 260. Even if the bullet blew up or penciled, the deer would be dead within a reasonable distance. Remember HUNCH=GUTS. Maybe GUTS and VITALS but guts are involved in some way or another. Add in the lack of blood and it equals GUTS.

Deer #2

Deer drop fast and thrash a lot when hit HIGH near the spine. They only get up afterwards when the shot hasn't hit the heart/lungs. That thrashing if he was hit in the lungs or heart would have drained his blood pressure until he blacked out. It rarely happens but I have seen bullets hit the DEAD ZONE or the area between the diaphragm and the spine, knock the animal down and then it get up. VERY RARE and some will say impossible but I have seen it happen twice in thousands of kills.

Over the years I became really good at both blood trailing and STORY trailing. I had to be. Shooting a critter is an adrenaline filled rush for most and things get confusing. We SEE things we want to see not necessarily what really happened. Before I began to trail a deer I would spend a long time deciphering the STORY.

I know its hard to hear this but 99.99% likely the 1st deer was gutshot and the 2nd was hit too high and very possibly was within 100 yds of last blood. That is common with high hits. They bleed until their blood pressure drops too low and then they still have 5 or 6 good leaps in them.

No bullet on the planet out of a 260 will cure the 1st situation.

The 2nd scenario you could redo a 1000 times and get the deer every time. Spine hits come down to very small differences. .0001 of an inch higher or lower and you may not have posted this.

Seeing things like this many times is why I shoot an Edge at deer. Everyone I know says its ridiculous but guess what? Never lost one. Insurance is cheap. If you are going to shoot deer with a 260 or 25-06 you don't have much insurance. Hit them in the heart/lungs and they will be dead within 200 yds 99.99% of the time, miss by a LITTLE bit and you don't have enough insurance to cover the bet.

 

[toddc]

I agree with a deer hunching from being gut shot, but you don't know anymore than I do what really happened there. We can only guess. And what I originally said I know what a Sierra bullet would have done at a close distance. You're going off saying the deer was gut shot it wasn't hit in the vitals. wth Where you there?

Uhhh no. It HUNCHED. Seen it HUNDREDS of times. All I need to know. Hunch+no blood=GUTS.

 

[Waynzee]

Uhhh no. It HUNCHED. Seen it HUNDREDS of times. All I need to know. Hunch+no blood=GUTS.

OH Wow! A real deer guru, you must think you're the only one that killed an enormous amount of deer, tracked and guided seen it all have ya, so much so you have to write a long story to prove it. Huh.

 

[toddc]

Nope. Just trying to get the OP to face the reality that he shot two critters that ran away due to bullet placement not bullet FAILURE. Pretty sure DARRKER caught it as well as well as anyone else who read this thread. Letting people continue to blame an inanimate object will not help them not repeat the mistake. Getting him to realize that he made 2 bad shots in a week, he may not do it next year. Shooting stuff and it running off is a personal issue with me as I had to deal with cleaning it up for years. I would hope it is an issue with anyone on here. Just MHO.

 

[Barrelnut]

Gpo1956,

If you were confident in your shot placement, the following thread might offer some sort of resolution. I would recommend verifying the hollow points are actually hollow on all Berger bullets that are expected to be fired on game...

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/berger-hunting-bullets-161424/

 

[Waynzee]

Nope. Just trying to get the OP to face the reality that he shot two critters that ran away due to bullet placement not bullet FAILURE. Pretty sure DARRKER caught it as well as well as anyone else who read this thread. Letting people continue to blame an inanimate object will not help them not repeat the mistake. Getting him to realize that he made 2 bad shots in a week, he may not do it next year. Shooting stuff and it running off is a personal issue with me as I had to deal with cleaning it up for years. I would hope it is an issue with anyone on here. Just MHO.

This is one time you might want to blame the bullet. I too have guided for a very large outfit and seen deer killed and wounded with everything from 30/30 to 375 mags. and and all type of ammo used,seen gut shot,seen *** shot, head shot, legs blown off and deer shot perfect behind the shoulder. And of all them deer I seen shot it always seem to me the old cup and core bullet never failed. Rather it was Sierra, Hornady, or Nosler. I've heard so much BS about the "NEW" Berger bullets failing I personally wouldn't use them. And being a guide myself once upon a time it's always easier to blame somebody for bad bullet placement rather than the bullet.

 

[stx]

Hog shot through both shoulders at 150 yds to test penetration with 140 VLD from 6.5 Creedmoor @ 2800fps......exit hole showing.....never took a step..... No VLD failure here!!

 

[toddc]

Hog shot through both shoulders at 150 yds to test penetration with 140 VLD from 6.5 Creedmoor @ 2800fps......exit hole showing.....never took a step..... No VLD failure here!!

That is 100% a bullet failure SIR! Don't ya know in todays society we expect everything we shoot in the general direction of to DIE! And then gut itself, cut itself into the proper proportions, wrap itself in butcher paper and transport itself to our freezer(Except for backstraps, they should be properly seasoned and cooked by the bullet and served 5 star to us in the field).

So in summary if all that didn't happen it was an ABSOLUTE FAILURE! Also my Noslers, Sierra's and other NON-BERGER bullets also spit out a participation trophy every time I shoot. Bergers don't therefore they suck!

Kids these days.

 

[stx]

That is 100% a bullet failure SIR! Don't ya know in todays society we expect everything we shoot in the general direction of to DIE! And then gut itself, cut itself into the proper proportions, wrap itself in butcher paper and transport itself to our freezer(Except for backstraps, they should be properly seasoned and cooked by the bullet and served 5 star to us in the field).

So in summary if all that didn't happen it was an ABSOLUTE FAILURE! Also my Noslers, Sierra's and other NON-BERGER bullets also spit out a participation trophy every time I shoot. Bergers don't therefore they suck!

Kids these days.

Now that's Funny! Nice to see a Great Sense of Humor!

 

[dsculley]

Been using the Berger VLD's for several years now. I have never had a deer that didn't go down. I shot one that was a bit too close for optimum results and he ran about 30 yds before he went down. All others have been DRT. I don't shoot shoulders, I try to put them in the heart/lungs and let the bulled do what is is made to do. I like the results I have had. If you think their performance has not been good for you, go back to what you trust. I personally don't understand it when people feel the need to publicly criticize a product. There are many other shooters/hunters that are very satisfied with the Berger line. There are those that love the Hornady or Sierra, or whatever. If you want to try something new that is good. If you are not pleased with the results, go back to what you trust.

I was in a hunting store one morning when a guy came and wanted a bigger hunting rifle. His story was that he had shot a deer that morning at 300 yds with his .270 and the deer did not go down. He KNEW it was a good shot, but he never found the deer. In 15 minutes he had purchased a new rifle chambered in .300 Weatherby Magnum (the largest chambering the store had to offer) and a new Leupold scope. It had to be the rifle/round, could not be the shooter!!

I have helped to track lots of deer. We have found lots of deer that left very little blood. None of those that left skimpy blood trails were shot in the heart/lungs.

FWIW

 

[toddc]

Been using the Berger VLD's for several years now. I have never had a deer that didn't go down. I shot one that was a bit too close for optimum results and he ran about 30 yds before he went down. All others have been DRT. I don't shoot shoulders, I try to put them in the heart/lungs and let the bulled do what is is made to do. I like the results I have had. If you think their performance has not been good for you, go back to what you trust. I personally don't understand it when people feel the need to publicly criticize a product. There are many other shooters/hunters that are very satisfied with the Berger line. There are those that love the Hornady or Sierra, or whatever. If you want to try something new that is good. If you are not pleased with the results, go back to what you trust.

I was in a hunting store one morning when a guy came and wanted a bigger hunting rifle. His story was that he had shot a deer that morning at 300 yds with his .270 and the deer did not go down. He KNEW it was a good shot, but he never found the deer. In 15 minutes he had purchased a new rifle chambered in .300 Weatherby Magnum (the largest chambering the store had to offer) and a new Leupold scope. It had to be the rifle/round, could not be the shooter!!

I have helped to track lots of deer. We have found lots of deer that left very little blood. None of those that left skimpy blood trails were shot in the heart/lungs.

FWIW

I have made a lot of BAD SHOTS on deer over the years. It's hard to blame ones self when there are so many other things we can look to blame. It's much easier to think that we made the perfect shot and then the bullet didn't expand (deer is still dead) or it just turned into VAPOR (guessing a deer might survive vapor in its lungs but IDK).
I hunted in an area where it was very hard to lose a deer. In fact I have only lost two out of thousands. We hunt wide open grasslands with some limited cover. When you shoot a deer here you can watch it run for miles if needed. I think a lot of MYSTERY surrounds bullet performance because a lot of deer are never recovered. We found our deer because we could track AND they were just easy to find. They were either in a 50 ft wide creek bottom or they were laying dead in 6" high grass.
Maybe if I hunted in tight cover I would also believe that deer can be hit in the heart and lungs and due to bullet performance not die. However I hunted where you could watch what happened 99% of the time and deer hit in the heart or lungs with anything just die.
I hit a doe in the brisket facing me at about 120 yds with a 338 300SMK. Blew EVERYTHING out of the bottom of her. She had no internal organs. NOTHING. All laying on the ground. She ran 200 yds. It took 2 minutes to find her. It might take a guy in Mississippi 3 hrs to do the same or he might even lose her since there was very little blood the last 100 yds. That happens all the time. Deer can still travel 100+ yds with no blood pressure and ALMOST no blood trail.
Stuff happens when you are shooting a living animal. You are excited. You forget marksmanship basics. Wind blows. ES rears its ugly head. Deer move(TOF even on a 200 yd shot makes this very possible). Deer run much further than seems possible and don't bleed EXTERNALLY. Lots of things can happen that make it SEEM that a bullet failed. I think the reason I don't believe 99% of the bullet failure threads is because I was able to watch clearly what really happened after a shot and almost always recover and autopsy the critter. Most people haven't had that luxury and when something goes wrong they don't realize the deer was within 50 yds of them graveyard dead at some point and they just didn't see it due to cover.
I know a guy who has shot a lot of deer with a 204 and 32gr bullets. Never lost one with that combo. Sounds crazy (and probably is) but even that rig would quickly kill any deer shot even on a shoulder hit. It only takes one tiny piece of a 32gr to zap thru a lung for a deer to die. I have seen them explode on the ribs and yet still a dead deer.
The rigs we are shooting nowadays are the deadliest ever known to man. However, shoot a deer in the guts and its still going to be a heck of a tracking job in most circumstances. For us it wasn't because we just watched where they went and then finished them. We KNEW they were gutshot because of their reaction and the fact they ran too far and in the wrong fashion to be heartshot.
I wish everyone could hunt in an area where what happens AFTER the shot isn't such a mystery. You would realize that deer that are absolutely DESTROYED can still run 200+ yds. You would realize that the bullet failures were in fact either a bad hit OR an incredibly tough animal. You would realize that there are no MAGIC bullets that will either instantly drop every deer ever shot OR blow thru their vitals without killing them.

Sorry for the novel I just hope someone will realize that deer are tough and can run much further than can be believed without dropping blood AND that if you hit it in the VITALS it is dead somewhere you just have to find it.

 

[Waynzee]

That is 100% a bullet failure SIR! Don't ya know in todays society we expect everything we shoot in the general direction of to DIE! And then gut itself, cut itself into the proper proportions, wrap itself in butcher paper and transport itself to our freezer(Except for backstraps, they should be properly seasoned and cooked by the bullet and served 5 star to us in the field).

So in summary if all that didn't happen it was an ABSOLUTE FAILURE! Also my Noslers, Sierra's and other NON-BERGER bullets also spit out a participation trophy every time I shoot. Bergers don't therefore they suck!

Kids these days.

I can see where this is going and I don't intend to pis& that far,,, so you go ahead and use your fabulous berger bullets. But don't try to blame somebody for a bad shot when it's the bullet failure.

 

[toddc]

I can see where this is going and I don't intend to pis& that far,,, so you go ahead and use your fabulous berger bullets. But don't try to blame somebody for a bad shot when it's the bullet failure.

I'm not defending Bergers. I'm defending any object that goes thru a deers heart or lungs at just about any velocity. All equal dead deer. Stab a deer in the heart with a pencil and it will die.

 

[Trnelson]

Bullet performance may be one of the least understood subjects by the average guy or gal on the street. Obviously the OP has some misconceptions to clear up and learn from, I'm not going to pile on that train. It isn't worth my time and he will find no value in it. Marketing, celebrity endorsement and miss-informed salespersons muck it up further.
In short, and greatly over-simplified for the sake of brevity. Bullets kill because they impart damage to the internal organs. Doing enough significant damage, quickly is the whole point. Whitetail deer are not bulletproof. Never have been. Obviously, the animals the OP shot were not hit in a vital spot. That doesn't mean they aren't very likely dead. The difference between Dead right there and a long tough blood trail (or failure to recover the animal) comes down to shot placement. In the truly unfortunate circumstance that you don't do enough damage to drop the animal quickly it will absolutely do everything and anything it can to stay alive, as long as it can.
I'm not advocating for / against shooting deer with a 204 Ruger, 260 remington , 30/06, 338 edge anymore so than a 50 BMG., no matter what the projectile is or is not. In the correct set of circumstances with correct shot placement ALL WORK.
Lastly, for the consideration of the OP, and anyone else who cares to look and learn. Here's a link to some very valuable information you can utilize to tailor the bullet you use to the most likely hunting situation you will encouter how you hunt.
Extensive Field-Tested Rifle & Cartridge Research - BallisticStudies.com