Berger 215 gr 300 WM load.

[dstancu]

I'd like to get an idea from the group what thought do you have when you see groups like these 2. Rifle shoots heavy ELDx great, but I'm stubborn and want to shoot Berger 215s. I'm using new Lapua brass, H1000 (75gr), Fed 215M, 0.002 NT. Played with seating depth from 0.010 to 0.040. Getting 2850 average velocity consistently.
Besides me pulling shots, what would you do differently to make rifle shoot MOA? Scope, torque, and usual things triple-checked. Perhaps it hates Bergers Thanks

It is probably the twist rate: if your rifle is 1:11, or possibly even 1:10, the bullet is too long to be stabilized. I had this problem trying to load ELDX 212gr in my Tikka T3x 300 wm super varmint, which had a 1:11 twist rate, and could not tighten the group no matter what I did in my reloads. The rifle shot the factory Precision Hunter (that uses ELDX 210). I wrote to Hornady, and they told me that 1:11 is not fast enough for 212gr. Then, I ordered a barrel from IBI with 1:9, and all my problems dissapeared. Heck, I was able to load the Berger EoL 145gr, and managed to make that load very accurate 1 MOA to up to 800m (I don't have a longer distance to shoot).
Berger has a very good twist rate stability calculator online, quite easy to use.

 

[trapper1954]

How is your action bedded? Is your scope lapped in? Is your barrel free floating, enough? What kind of stock do you have? Harmonics is a big deal. Some 23 years back we used to have a fly contest Bandera Gun Club in Bandera Texas on lazy Sunday evenings , 5 house flys on a sheet of paper @ 100 yards, 5 shots, 60 seconds, $5 a try, winner take all. My wife beat all, hit all with an old 1955 Sako Rihimaki 222 varmint beaver tail. tightest group ever was 0.038 @ 100. ,, turned necks and squared pocket end. As I stated, harmonics, this was a big big deal with this particular rifle. It was barrel heavy and would slide off the Hart rest. I removed the but plate drilled a hole to fit a glass cigar tube full of #7 1/2 shot and was about 1# and would sit well unattended on bags. That experiment cost me everything, lost all the accuracy I had, it went to a 1.5 inch group. Took the tube out heated it up, poured hot parafin in it, wrapped it in layers of news paper, reinstalled and like magic its back to house fly tight. The action was glued in. So I start by bedding the action first, lap the scope rings next, Bullet seating depth is very critical and different gun to gun. I turn the necks on my brass. As an older man told me the projectile cant fly its best if its 0.005 off center of the bore from the git go.

 

[haisardao]

How is your action bedded? Is your scope lapped in? Is your barrel free floating, enough? What kind of stock do you have? Harmonics is a big deal. Some 23 years back we used to have a fly contest Bandera Gun Club in Bandera Texas on lazy Sunday evenings , 5 house flys on a sheet of paper @ 100 yards, 5 shots, 60 seconds, $5 a try, winner take all. My wife beat all, hit all with an old 1955 Sako Rihimaki 222 varmint beaver tail. tightest group ever was 0.038 @ 100. ,, turned necks and squared pocket end. As I stated, harmonics, this was a big big deal with this particular rifle. It was barrel heavy and would slide off the Hart rest. I removed the but plate drilled a hole to fit a glass cigar tube full of #7 1/2 shot and was about 1# and would sit well unattended on bags. That experiment cost me everything, lost all the accuracy I had, it went to a 1.5 inch group. Took the tube out heated it up, poured hot parafin in it, wrapped it in layers of news paper, reinstalled and like magic its back to house fly tight. The action was glued in. So I start by bedding the action first, lap the scope rings next, Bullet seating depth is very critical and different gun to gun. I turn the necks on my brass. As an older man told me the projectile cant fly its best if its 0.005 off center of the bore from the git go.

Thanks, it's a bedded Mesa stock, free floated. Scope sits on NF rings, not lapped. It shoots great other bullets, just having found the right combination for the Bergers. It'll get back to it at some point. Great input, appreciate you
Taking the time.

 

[emp1953]

Try shooting "without" using the magazine. bullets could be jumping forward during recoil changing distance to the rifling.
1) Hand feed each round and see if it changes things.
2) Have someone else you trust shoot the rifle and see what changes.
Label the holes 1, 2, 3 to match the order you are shooting them to see if the flyer is always the last shot.

 

[emp1953]

Thanks, it's a bedded Mesa stock, free floated. Scope sits on NF rings, not lapped. It shoots great other bullets, just having found the right combination for the Bergers. It'll get back to it at some point. Great input, appreciate you
Taking the time.

The 215's are quite long in 30cal. What is your rifles twist rate? Not sure if I saw anything regarding range on these targets. Are the flyers always to the right? Could spin drift be coming into play?

 

[haisardao]

The 215's are quite long in 30cal. What is your rifles twist rate?

It's a 1:10

 

[emp1953]

It's a 1:10

Info on the Berger website suggests (to me anyway) that a lighter (thus shorter) bullet is recommended. Usually, longish bullets require a faster twist to provide acceptable stability. You could try dialing down the velocity a bit. Although instability many times is shown by holes on the target that aren't round. Your's are definitely still round.

Here's their recomendation chart for a 1:10 twist barrel

Part #	Bullet Description	SG	G1 BC	G7 BC
30105	30 Caliber 175 Grain Match OTM Tactical	2.30	0.512	0.263
30107	30 Caliber 185 Grain Match Juggernaut OTM Tactical	1.98	0.552	0.283
30407	30 Caliber 150 Grain Match FB Target	2.54	0.393	0.201
30408	30 Caliber 155 Grain Match VLD Target	2.10	0.464	0.238
30410	30 Caliber 168 Grain Match VLD Target	2.26	0.507	0.260
30412	30 Caliber 175 Grain Match VLD Target	1.92	0.512	0.262
30413	30 Caliber 185 Grain Match VLD Target	1.86	0.543	0.278
30415	30 Caliber 210 Grain Match VLD Target	1.81	0.621	0.318
30416	30 Caliber 155.5 Grain Match FULLBORE Target	2.22	0.473	0.242
30418	30 Caliber 185 Grain Match Juggernaut Target	2.02	0.555	0.284
30419	30 Caliber 210 Grain Match Long Range BT Target	1.80	0.625	0.320
30420	30 Caliber 175 Grain Match Long Range BT Target	2.04	0.512	0.262
30421	30 Caliber 115 Grain Match FB Target	3.49	0.289	0.148
30424	30 Caliber 185 Grain Match Hybrid Target	1.73	0.576	0.295
30425	30 Caliber 168 Grain Match Hybrid Target	2.08	0.515	0.264
30426	30 Caliber 155 Grain Match Hybrid Target	1.99	0.478	0.245
30427	30 Caliber 200 Grain Match Hybrid Target	1.62	0.616	0.316
30417	30 Caliber 200.20X gr Hybrid Target	1.56	0.640	0.328
30508	30 Caliber 155 Grain Match Grade VLD Hunting	2.23	0.464	0.238
30510	30 Caliber 168 Grain Match Grade VLD Hunting	2.21	0.498	0.255
30512	30 Caliber 175 Grain Match Grade VLD Hunting	1.98	0.518	0.265
30513	30 Caliber 185 Grain Match Grade VLD Hunting	2.16	0.558	0.286
30514	30 Caliber 190 Grain Match Grade VLD Hunting	1.96	0.566	0.290
30515	30 Caliber 210 Grain Match Grade VLD Hunting	1.77	0.625	0.320
30570	30 Caliber 168 Grain Match Grade Classic Hunter	2.38	0.489	0.251
30571	30 Caliber 185 Grain Match Grade Classic Hunter	2.16	0.533	0.273

It looks like the Ballistic Coefficient drops down 5% to 10% due to degraded stability.

Take a look at this thread on this forum #7

Berger 215's in 1-11 twist 300 WM

Any chance a 1-11 twist 26" barrel 300 Win Mag will stabilize the Berger 215 Hybrid?

www.longrangehunting.com

 

[thomasbangs]

We worked up a load for one of my sons 300 Win. Mag. 74.5 grains of H 1000, CCI 250 primers, Winchester brass, Berger 215. Overall length is 3.630". This he single loads as too long for magazine function, rifle is a Weatherby Vanguard 2, he changed out the stock to a aluminum bedded Medalist and changed out the trigger to a Timney. It will put 3 shots touching at 100 yards if you can hold it. I should mention it is topped with a NF scope.

 

[trhall]

I'd like to get an idea from the group what thought do you have when you see groups like these 2. Rifle shoots heavy ELDx great, but I'm stubborn and want to shoot Berger 215s. I'm using new Lapua brass, H1000 (75gr), Fed 215M, 0.002 NT. Played with seating depth from 0.010 to 0.040. Getting 2850 average velocity consistently.
Besides me pulling shots, what would you do differently to make rifle shoot MOA? Scope, torque, and usual things triple-checked. Perhaps it hates Bergers Thanks

At 75gr you might be a bit under charge. I have developed this load for 9 different rifles using Win brass which I realize may be a bit lighter than Lapua but charges usually end up in the 76 gr range. Most rifles I've built this load for like it best close to max. By max, I mean close to pressure signs for the rifle.

 

[trollsonpatrol]

I'd like to get an idea from the group what thought do you have when you see groups like these 2. Rifle shoots heavy ELDx great, but I'm stubborn and want to shoot Berger 215s. I'm using new Lapua brass, H1000 (75gr), Fed 215M, 0.002 NT. Played with seating depth from 0.010 to 0.040. Getting 2850 average velocity consistently.
Besides me pulling shots, what would you do differently to make rifle shoot MOA? Scope, torque, and usual things triple-checked. Perhaps it hates Bergers Thanks

It is your rifle that decides what load and bullet it likes. You have to try different powders, different amounts different bullet weight and styles, different primers.

When the right combination is there, you will be rewarded by a small group, if you do your part. Never forget the human factor as well. Good luck.

 

[cb4128]

I think taking a step back here, those groups the OP is getting with this combo is so far off from what should be an acceptable load, I'd just steer clear of this combo. If you revisit it, try a different powder and maybe even load them closer to the lands - if possible in your rifle.

 

[haisardao]

I think taking a step back here, those groups the OP is getting with this combo is so far off from what should be an acceptable load, I'd just steer clear of this combo. If you revisit it, try a different powder and maybe even load them closer to the lands - if possible in your rifle.

I agree, if I go back to it it'll be a complete change. At the moment I'm going to enjoy shooting those ELDx.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

And remember, bullets on target can be unstable without keyholes.
the keyhole signature might not show up until another 50 yds, 100yds, whatever down the line

 

[Mcranch]

It is probably the twist rate: if your rifle is 1:11, or possibly even 1:10, the bullet is too long to be stabilized. I had this problem trying to load ELDX 212gr in my Tikka T3x 300 wm super varmint, which had a 1:11 twist rate, and could not tighten the group no matter what I did in my reloads. The rifle shot the factory Precision Hunter (that uses ELDX 210). I wrote to Hornady, and they told me that 1:11 is not fast enough for 212gr. Then, I ordered a barrel from IBI with 1:9, and all my problems dissapeared. Heck, I was able to load the Berger EoL 145gr, and managed to make that load very accurate 1 MOA to up to 800m (I don't have a longer distance to shoot).
Berger has a very good twist rate stability calculator online, quite easy to use.

Yes, that is what I'm thinking. Looking at Berger calculator and it states 1-10 as minimum for the 215 but you have to also look at mv at what elevation? At zero elevation, sea level the speed has to be considered. If I remember correctly I would have to go to a 1-9.5 to stabilize the 215 at sea level. Get on Berger sight and play with different numbers with their calculator