Berger 168 VLD results on an Elk

[Alfred Crouch]

At what range was the pronghorn he shot? I am particularly interested in this since I have a 7mm SAUM as my new toy. Was skeptical of it at first but the more I shoot it the more I like it. Neat little gun. Magazine is too short to allow looading bullets out to touch the lands. Don't know what effect this is going to have on it yet. Thanks.

 

[Coyboy]

The 168 vlds come with 2 jacket thicknesses, thin for hunting (orange box). Thick for target shooting (yellow box), might have been a mix-up.

I shot my mule deer in CO 2nd season and at 826 yards the 180 bergers out of a 7rum expanded considerably. The first hit the scapula knuckle and detonated. It fraged the lungs with shrapnel. and put the hurt on him. I sent another one that went high shoulder after a correction, and that one pencil thru the leading shoulder blade and than expanded quite well thru the spine and actually made and exit hole.

My experience with heavy bone and bergers leaves a bit to be desired. If that were an elk and the shot landed on that heavy knucle, Only a follow up shot would ensure a clean harvest.

 

[Bravo 4]

I think Cowboy nailed this one, that's the first thing I thought after I read the first post. Make sure you are using the hunting bullet.

 

[bigg_sexy1]

The 168 vlds come with 2 jacket thicknesses, thin for hunting (orange box). Thick for target shooting (yellow box), might have been a mix up.

Yes exactly what I was thinking as well.

I shot a bull with my 300 RUM at 210 yds this year, the bullet pencil holed on the shooting side shoulder and then opened violently in the chest cavity, but did not exit the chest cavity. My brother used the same rifle a few days later to kill his bull at 670yds, same exact result small hole in, violent expansion tuning vitals to mush, did not exit the chest cavity. Oddly enough my bull ran about 100 yds with completelty exploded heart and lungs? My brothers bull went about 4 steps and fell over. In any event the bullets performed flawlessly both times.

 

[johnnyk]

That sounds just like Ballistic Tip performance to me. JohnnyK.

 

[NZ Longranger]

Here in New Zealand we have no big game seasons or limits, so we hunt big game all year round. We have deer ranging from what we call Wapiti (Elk), to the similar body weight Sambar, then slightly smaller Red (known as Stag to you guys I think), then Sika, Rusa, Fallow and even Whitetail.
I have personally shot over 500 head of big game, and guided and witnessed the shooting of thousands more. These range from the biggest Wapiti down to the smallest Fallow, with the majority being Red and Sika deer, at ranges from point blank to 1500 yards.
The bullet I've shot by far the most big game at long range with is the 7mm 180gn thin jacket Berger, and it is a truly exceptional bullet for this job. It has definitely been the quickest killer of game beyond 500 yards, and also the easiest to hit with due to its BC verses velocity potential in the big 7mms. I also really like the 200gn Wildcat terminal performance wise, but I've run out of them! The 162 A-Max and 175 SMK also perform pretty good. This is in generally lightweight rifles, where the 7mm is king, due to the performance vs weight vs recoil tradeoff. In the heavier guns the 338 300gn SMK is an extremely reliable performer, and I expect the 338 Bergers to be even better! (Please Eric!!! I've rethroated most of my reamers to suit them in anticipation so I hope they're not too far away now!?!?!?)
There are exceptions to every rule, but the neither the AB's nor any other controlled expansion bullet will kill as quick at long range as the Bergers, even with Elk sized animals. Its all about impact velocity, there is no such thing as a bullet with ideal terminal performance at both 50 yards and 1000 yards, or nothing of current construction anyway. Yes, if you hit the shoulder knuckle on the largest deer at range, the Berger may not get through, but it will definitely temporarily anchor the animal to allow a follow up kill shot. But an AB through the lungs will allow the animal to travel a long way before it finally bleeds out due to very minimal expansion at long range. It will need to hit the knuckle to achieve much expansion. Don't get me wrong, the AB is my favourite under 400 yard bullet in most rifles, but I run a 2 load setup in most of them. AB's for closer stuff, and Bergers/A-Max's/ SMK's for the longer shots.
The Berger will expand more than a controlled expansion bullet on any shot as a rule, but you will always strike the very odd anomaly if you shoot enough. As always though, this is the exception that proves the rule!
Greg

 

[Slopeshunter]

Here's a question for you guys who carry 2 loads when hunting, as Greg mentioned for instance AB's for 400 & closer and bergers for 400+. Do you just have a drop chart for the bergers (as that's your long range bullet), & if it's 400 or under, just use the AB & aim accordingly, or will you adjust your clicks using your berger drop chart?? Do you carry 2 drop charts? I wouldn't think it necessary if one is just for under 400. But then again I'm the one asking the question.

Have I confused anyone now? Not sure how clear my writing was.

 

[NZ Longranger]

Here's a question for you guys who carry 2 loads when hunting, as Greg mentioned for instance AB's for 400 & closer and bergers for 400+. Do you just have a drop chart for the bergers (as that's your long range bullet), & if it's 400 or under, just use the AB & aim accordingly, or will you adjust your clicks using your berger drop chart?? Do you carry 2 drop charts? I wouldn't think it necessary if one is just for under 400. But then again I'm the one asking the question.

Have I confused anyone now? Not sure how clear my writing was.

Slopes,
No, that's perfectly clear! I generally don't use a drop chart for the AB load, as we're driving them up to around 3600fps so they shoot pretty flat to 400 yards. I normally set them for a 300 yard zero, aim straight at them to 350 and hold up on the animal at 400. Beyond that its longrange load, drop charts and dial up. The turret is zero'd for the longrange load, and I know what setting gives me the 300 yard zero with the AB load for spook and shoot.
Make sense?
Greg

 

[jmden]

In the heavier guns the 338 300gn SMK is an extremely reliable performer, and I expect the 338 Bergers to be even better! (Please Eric!!! I've rethroated most of my reamers to suit them in anticipation so I hope they're not too far away now!?!?!?)

NZ Longranger--Would you take a close shot (say, impact of 2800-2900fps) at the shoulder of an elk with the 300SMK? Any experience there? It'll be interesting to see how the 300Berger does...

 

[Marine sniper]

I shot an elk at 275 yards this year with a 300 Wby and 210 Berger. 10-12 in. total penetration, very high shoulder shot (just below spine) did not exit. Biggest piece of bullet was maybe 20-30 grains. Elk dropped in his tracks

There is no perfect bullet. All are trade offs. I carry 200 NAB's and 210 Bergers depending on the most likely range. I would not want to use a Berger at 100 yards through the shoulders, not sure they would make it deep enough, but at 800 thrugh the lungs, absolutely.

Even though a bullet has a great BC, and is accurate, does not mean it is an effective long range killer. If you plan on killing elk at long range I believe you are under gunned with anything less than a 7mm magnum, 30 cal better and the 300 gr 338's, better yet.

 

[NZ Longranger]

NZ Longranger--Would you take a close shot (say, impact of 2800-2900fps) at the shoulder of an elk with the 300SMK? Any experience there? It'll be interesting to see how the 300Berger does...

If I had to yes, but I definitely would aim just behind the shoulder and treat it like a bow shot. I wouldn't want to hit big bone on the way in. SMK's will come to pieces and loose their core, which is just fine once they're in the lungs, but not on the shoulder! A 300gn SMK with a 2800fps impact is a bomb!

Marine Sniper is quite right. Accuracy at long range is only half the story. Terminal performance is the other half, which is why I love the Bergers way out there!
Greg

 

[montana_native]

They are definitely the hunting bullets...at least according to the packaging they are.

Again, maybe I was just expecting more from them.

 

[Slopeshunter]

Slopes,
No, that's perfectly clear! I generally don't use a drop chart for the AB load, as we're driving them up to around 3600fps so they shoot pretty flat to 400 yards. I normally set them for a 300 yard zero, aim straight at them to 350 and hold up on the animal at 400. Beyond that its longrange load, drop charts and dial up. The turret is zero'd for the longrange load, and I know what setting gives me the 300 yard zero with the AB load for spook and shoot.
Make sense?
Greg

Thanks Greg! That's exactly what I thought.

Cheers!

 

[jmden]

They are definitely the hunting bullets...at least according to the packaging they are.

Again, maybe I was just expecting more from them.

Interesting. In an email exchange with Walt Berger last month asking him what bullet he'd reccomend for elk for my brother's 300 WSM, I thought he'd reccomend the 190 or maybe the 210, but he said the 168's had been the goto bullet for elk. Obviously, no one bullet will perform well at all times at all distances, but it would seem that there's enough evidence that the 168 generally works quite well on elk that Walt was willing to through some weight that way...

Here's the quote from Walt: "We want our VLD bullet to expend ALL of its energy inside the animal and destroy all of the vital organs resulting in a one shot humane kill and the animal not running off. The 190 and 210 grain bullets will perform well on elk but the most popular bullet for this application is the 168 grain VLD bullet."