Bergara Barrel for TC Pro Htr Question

[wtmaniac]

I'm looking at buying a Bergara 50 cal. barrel through Mike Bellms TC's company. After searching through his website and reading about how they tweak the barrels from Bergara before they are sold sounds like the place to but one from. I would also order a 1X and 2x hinge pin to try as well. I am not that crazy about the TC barrel that came with my pro htr. Has anyone else dealt with this them ?

Thanks
wrmaniac

 

[ENCORE]

I'm looking at buying a Bergara 50 cal. barrel through Mike Bellms TC's company. After searching through his website and reading about how they tweak the barrels from Bergara before they are sold sounds like the place to but one from. I would also order a 1X and 2x hinge pin to try as well. I am not that crazy about the TC barrel that came with my pro htr. Has anyone else dealt with this them ?

Thanks
wrmaniac

Absolutely. When dealing with either Mike or Kurt, you are dealing with the absolute, most knowledgeable people in North America when it comes to the Encore platform rifles. PERIOD! They set the bar for customer service so high, that no other business comes close. I've bought, talked to and discussed some extreme questions with both of them over the years. Top notch people, that do top quality work and provide top quality service.

When people upgrade triggers, hinge pins, HD firing pins springs and HD locking bolt springs, the smiths that may do the work, get their parts from Bellm.

I have a very close friend that purchased a Bergara barrel from Mike for his Pro Hunter. He's very satisfied. You will be too!

 

[wtmaniac]

Encore thanks for your reply. I have read many of your posts and respect your knowledge of muzzleloading and related subjects. There certainly is a ton of info available and sifting through to find what actually works is frustrating and kinda enjoyable at the same time. I am going to use my current setup until our season is over and then place a order with Bellm' TC's .


Thks again
wtmaniac

 

[woodnut]

wtmaniac, just to give you my experience with Bellms. First off, I'm not that happy. I ordered a forend, scope base and a Bergara barrel for my Encore, which isn't a pro Hunter. Kurt said they have a "special" box to send the barrel in and will have to ship the other parts separate AND of course I'll have to pay more shipping costs. When I got the barrel, which also came much later, it could have easily housed the forend and scope base. As for the barrel, it didn't have Bellm's stamp on it so I called and Kurt assured me his dad did got through it. They did send me a return label to send it back, but I haven't done so yet. I'm also very disappointed in that Bergara uses a CVA breech plug that won't work with Blackhorn powder. I wrote Blackhorn and they agree. I've shot the barrel, and while it's accurate, it also is not well sealed and I get lots of blowback which goes everywhere in the action. I've had to return to White Hots for fuel and hope the blow back is reduced. My advise is to ask more questions, call, don't email. Kurt was not inclined to answer my emails but will talk on the phone. I wish he'd been more helpful in explaining the shortcomings of the Bergara barrel; ie, it won't shoot Blackhorn and it isn't a good seal. There seems to be a better plug at CVA, but I haven't gotten all my info on it yet. Having said all that, I do think Bellms is a fine company to deal with, you just need to know what to ask. I didn't.

 

[ENCORE]

wtmaniac, just to give you my experience with Bellms. First off, I'm not that happy. I ordered a forend, scope base and a Bergara barrel for my Encore, which isn't a pro Hunter. Kurt said they have a "special" box to send the barrel in and will have to ship the other parts separate AND of course I'll have to pay more shipping costs. When I got the barrel, which also came much later, it could have easily housed the forend and scope base. As for the barrel, it didn't have Bellm's stamp on it so I called and Kurt assured me his dad did got through it. They did send me a return label to send it back, but I haven't done so yet. I'm also very disappointed in that Bergara uses a CVA breech plug that won't work with Blackhorn powder. I wrote Blackhorn and they agree. I've shot the barrel, and while it's accurate, it also is not well sealed and I get lots of blowback which goes everywhere in the action. I've had to return to White Hots for fuel and hope the blow back is reduced. My advise is to ask more questions, call, don't email. Kurt was not inclined to answer my emails but will talk on the phone. I wish he'd been more helpful in explaining the shortcomings of the Bergara barrel; ie, it won't shoot Blackhorn and it isn't a good seal. There seems to be a better plug at CVA, but I haven't gotten all my info on it yet. Having said all that, I do think Bellms is a fine company to deal with, you just need to know what to ask. I didn't.

The shipping issue has to do with FFL guidelines, which I can assure you I don't have a clue about. But, I do know parts must be shipped separate. Encore platform rifles fall under different rules, because of the ability to change barrels, even to pistol. As far as the breech plug, CVA for some reason has had a hard time understanding that muzzleloader shooters are switching to BH209 and didn't catch on quick enough. However you can order, from CVA the proper breech plug to shoot BH209 reliably, as they are manufacturing them. I believe they're about $20. Well, I know of one person that bought his for that price. You can make your existing breech plug shoot BH209 and ignite it reliably. You would drill out the flash hole to .031" (thirty one thousandths).

I didn't want to rain on the OP's parade but, I personally know shooters who have the Bergara barrels on Encores and Pro Hunters. They DO NOT shoot any better than the factory T/C barrels. I've have shooters shoot right here with me and using Bergara barrels purchased from Bellm. I'm sorry but, if the OP is expecting some kind of change like "daylight to dark" with a Bergara barrel, he's going to be quite unhappy. As I stated in the other post, a very good friend has one and he's very happy with it. But just for the record.......... He's 20 years younger and my factory Pro Hunter out shoots him and his Bergara barrel

 

[woodnut]

Encore, I do agree with you. So does the guy in Manitoba who makes bullets for MZers. He thinks Bergara barrels are junk. I think that's overstating the point. I can't personally compare my Bergara to a T/C barrel. All I can say is that it does shoot well. But, I don't know about the FFL issue. They did ship the barrel direct to me, so I can't see an FFL issue as why not put the parts in with it? I don't know.

 

[wtmaniac]

Woodnut, Thanks for your imput I was not aware the Bergara barrel ships with a breech plug that is not compatible with bh209 which I am using. They don't disclose that anywhere I can find on there site. However they do sell modified breech plugs. I plan on ordering thier hinge pin and trigger kit before I order a barrel and see what that does to tighten up my groups. I know that each rifle is unique in respect to finding the one powder/bullet/sabot combo that allows it to shoot the best.That is providing the shooter does his job. My current setup shoots good but not great I am just on a quest to get the most out of equipment.

Now Encore you have not rained on my parade just drizzled on it some. I am not looking for a magic wand improvement that must have been a assumption on your part. All the variables that go into making a particular rifle/ammo/scope. and shooters ability are endless. One of the reasons I doing all this is I just biught my son a CVA optima combo from Dunham's and right out of the box it will shoot circles around my "oh so great TC Pro hunter" LOL And I was the shooter in both cases. I just want to improve what I have.

 

[ENCORE]

Woodnut, Thanks for your imput I was not aware the Bergara barrel ships with a breech plug that is not compatible with bh209 which I am using. They don't disclose that anywhere I can find on there site. However they do sell modified breech plugs. I plan on ordering thier hinge pin and trigger kit before I order a barrel and see what that does to tighten up my groups. I know that each rifle is unique in respect to finding the one powder/bullet/sabot combo that allows it to shoot the best.That is providing the shooter does his job. My current setup shoots good but not great I am just on a quest to get the most out of equipment.

Now Encore you have not rained on my parade just drizzled on it some. I am not looking for a magic wand improvement that must have been a assumption on your part. All the variables that go into making a particular rifle/ammo/scope. and shooters ability are endless. One of the reasons I doing all this is I just biught my son a CVA optima combo from Dunham's and right out of the box it will shoot circles around my "oh so great TC Pro hunter" LOL And I was the shooter in both cases. I just want to improve what I have.

BEFORE...... I spent money on a different barrel, I'd work on what I have. I've shot Encore platform rifles since I could first get my hands on one. I can assure you, there's never been one that wouldn't shoot better than the shooter. I've set quite a few up for shooters and never had a person leave the range, that didn't have a smile on his face and stating that they would have never believed that a muzzleloader could be that accurate.

The hinge pin is one of the larger contributing factors, which will tighten up groups. It is necessary to have that tight. Of course then there's the trigger pull, that certainly varies on each different rifle. Hammer springs, locking bolt springs and HD firing pin springs and trigger over travel screws, all contribute to tight groups.


My Pro Hunter, a 209x50, will hold consistent 1/4" groups at 100yds, 3/4" groups at 150yds and 2" groups at 200yds. (Note: This is on my good days). This is with the factory T/C 28" barrel. However, I have done $35.00 worth of changes.

• Pro Hunter 209x50
• Nikon Monarch 2.5-10x50
• 107.1 grains VOLUME (75grs weight "exact") BH209
• CCI209M primers
• Barnes 250gr TMZ bullets
• Trigger 1.7# honed and polished
• 51# or 44# hammer spring (choice depends on target shooting or hunting)
• HD locking bolt spring
• HD firing pin spring
• Trigger over travel screw
• 2x hinge pin required right out of the box new......
• Caldwell FCX rest

I don't believe I can get mine (me) to shoot any better.
Good luck

 

[wtmaniac]

Encore , I have been shooting 100 gr by volume of bh209 and harvestors scopion pt 260 gr with there black crush rib sabots . I bought some barnes 250 gr tmz and will be trying those as well . Do you use the sabots that come with the tmz's ? I also will be trying the 300 gr scorpion pt and changing my dose of bh209 to 110 gr I do have a set of scales and will be weighing the charges.and see what combo works the best . I will try all these diff loads after I get my parts from Bellm .

wtmaniac

 

[FrontierGander]

With an Encore you can use the Bellm Shims to adjust the head space and take up the slack in the primer.

This will give you an idea what we do with the CVA break actions.
Ganders Muzzle Loading Blog: CVA Headspace Adjustment Shims

The video shows before and after.

 

[ENCORE]

Encore , I have been shooting 100 gr by volume of bh209 and harvestors scopion pt 260 gr with there black crush rib sabots . I bought some barnes 250 gr tmz and will be trying those as well . Do you use the sabots that come with the tmz's ? I also will be trying the 300 gr scorpion pt and changing my dose of bh209 to 110 gr I do have a set of scales and will be weighing the charges.and see what combo works the best . I will try all these diff loads after I get my parts from Bellm .

wtmaniac

With the T-EZ bullets, unless you have an extremely tight barrel, they should load easy. I shoot the TMZ bullet with the supplied sabot. I guess I've been lucky with all my different rifles, as I've never had to change from the supplied sabot.

I do have a package of the Harvester crushed ribs that a shooter gave me and designed for the boattail bullet. They loaded easier but, they also opened up my group to over 4". I was doing some force measurements that day, which is why I decided to try them. There are many shooters that like to experiment with different sabots, loads and bullets. I'm glad those shooters do that but, I have a habit of identifying, or determining (even if only in my mind) what I need to do, to get what I have shooting acceptable. That's the challenge for me.

I highly suggest you read Mike's entire site. Fontier Gander mentioned the breech shims that Mike sells. I highly recommend you read Mike's site about head space. They work great when properly used.

 

[woodnut]

Guys, this is getting more interesting as we go forward! My Encore had a trigger job already done on it when I got it as a rifle. I put a new hing pin in it; the one that has a screw on the opposite side that tightens it up. Plus, the pin itself was much tighter than the original so I now have a very smooth and tight pin. Today, I went to my friend who has a gunsmithing setup. I showed him my problem with blowback and after he decided I wasn't crazy, we got to measuring. The primer is flush with the rear of the plug so we then closed it and turned the plug out. Yep, it did turn out just a wee bit. Exactly 0.003". I think that's right. Anyways, I had thought of that solution before,but because the gap was so small, I didn't pursue the route we wound up taking. He had the shim stock I needed so we cut a three thousandth shim to go down over the plug to seat when the plug is screwed down. It seems perfect! Barrel closes and opens, no gaps anywhere. I just need to remember primers come in different lengths and they can effect that new set up. Now all I need is my other friend to fix the plug for the flame so I can shoot BH209 ! We'll work on that issue next week. He says he can do it and if I want, I will be able to shoot pellets,too. Probably never will again! I just wish BH 209 wasn't so darned expensive!
So, I also agree, Before buying a new barrel, try what you have by getting a new and tighter hing pin. A trigger job, if yours is not to your liking, is a plus. Don't know how much this helps, but I opened the forend to get a "free float" on the barrel.
I was glad to hear someone else has decided to weigh charges. After you first get the close volume you want. Weighing will get you lots better results; but don't forget it's really about improving a volume throw. I found the same thing, that 75 grains by weight is a great charge and is about 110(?) by volume. I also like the Barnes TMZ 250s and their sabots with this load. I think it's TMZ. Actually , it's Knights packaging of a Barnes boat tail bullet. That's the TMZ , right?

 

[ENCORE]

Guys, this is getting more interesting as we go forward! My Encore had a trigger job already done on it when I got it as a rifle. I put a new hing pin in it; the one that has a screw on the opposite side that tightens it up. Plus, the pin itself was much tighter than the original so I now have a very smooth and tight pin. Today, I went to my friend who has a gunsmithing setup. I showed him my problem with blowback and after he decided I wasn't crazy, we got to measuring. The primer is flush with the rear of the plug so we then closed it and turned the plug out. Yep, it did turn out just a wee bit. Exactly 0.003". I think that's right. Anyways, I had thought of that solution before,but because the gap was so small, I didn't pursue the route we wound up taking. He had the shim stock I needed so we cut a three thousandth shim to go down over the plug to seat when the plug is screwed down. It seems perfect! Barrel closes and opens, no gaps anywhere. I just need to remember primers come in different lengths and they can effect that new set up. Now all I need is my other friend to fix the plug for the flame so I can shoot BH209 ! We'll work on that issue next week. He says he can do it and if I want, I will be able to shoot pellets,too. Probably never will again! I just wish BH 209 wasn't so darned expensive!
So, I also agree, Before buying a new barrel, try what you have by getting a new and tighter hing pin. A trigger job, if yours is not to your liking, is a plus. Don't know how much this helps, but I opened the forend to get a "free float" on the barrel.
I was glad to hear someone else has decided to weigh charges. After you first get the close volume you want. Weighing will get you lots better results; but don't forget it's really about improving a volume throw. I found the same thing, that 75 grains by weight is a great charge and is about 110(?) by volume. I also like the Barnes TMZ 250s and their sabots with this load. I think it's TMZ. Actually , it's Knights packaging of a Barnes boat tail bullet. That's the TMZ , right?

Which rifle do you have?

 

[woodnut]

I bought the used but not abused Encore rifle in 20 Tac. It had been gone through by MGM. Even has engraving on the receiver; neat scrolls and the words "The Facilitator". As a rifle, it shoots bug holes. I haven't really had the MZ barrel long enough to shoot groups, but I think it will be a fine shooter, too.