Bear Defense

[SansSouci]

Hi engineer40,

I'd much rather hit a charging griz with 6 180 grain .357 Mag rounds than 1 .44 Mag round and 5 leaving a barrel with prayers.

I used to own a Model 629 .44 Mag with a 6" barrel. No matter how hard I tried, follow-up shots fired rapidly weren't happening. So I sold it.

A Model 1911A1 with 9 230 grain +P rounds and 8 more ready to go in seconds might be a better option.

 

[SansSouci]

FEENIX,

I'm still on the fence with bear pepper spray. If a scientist can isolate causality of oleoresin capsicum as causal of stopping wild, charging bears of a scientifically significant population to the elimination of all confounding factors, I'd be good. But I've read contradicting reports, some alleging the efficacy of OC spray on bears was agenda-driven junk science. But there's more.

As the guys in the video mentioned, grizzlies are extremely fast. So are black bears. If you're hunting with a rifle, a hunter would not have time to get his rifle out of his hands and reach for pepper spray. Also, on the day of attack, the older of the two said a breeze was blowing in his face which would've precluded use of spray. Were a hunter to get OC spray in his face, it will be all over but the bear dining on him.

When I hunt alone, I always hunt with a round in the chamber of my rifle. I never carry a handgun while hunting.

One has to be absolutely certain what would be the best available weapon for stopping any charging bear. Would pepper stray work better than an '06? If so, that would mean that while hunting in bear areas, pepper spray should be at the ready with rifle shouldered. But that makes no sense.

As we know, bears are extremely fast. Not many develop muscle memory, or what the hunters in the video called conditioned response. The terms are synonymous. However, there is a transference of muscle memory from bad guy tactical applications to all threats to one's life. It's all about responding under pressure as taught. For me, it's shooting and continue shooting until the threat ceases to be a threat.

Another consideration is to never surrender a tactical advantage. It would not be wise to shoulder a rifle and try to bring pepper stray to battery. And one must never use pepper spray where he might become contaminated by it.

I'm skeptical of "research" that indicates superiority of OC spray to a high power rifle. There would be plethora of differentiating factors to assume similarities of attacks. I've watched a video of a dude with balls the size of Saturn stand dead still at a charging elephant. He fired his second shot with the beast bearing down at him yards away. The beast immediately hit the ground. I've seen similar videos of hunters doing the same with African lion and Cape buffalo. The point is you gotta go with what you have most faith in saving your life. You might not get a second chance.

Had the younger hunter had his rifle ready to fire, he'd of killed that bear deader that dead with a shot from most high power rifles to the center of any bear's neck. That was a huge tactical error on his part.

I've never killed a bear. If I wanted to, I could drive to certain areas of the Eastern Sierra or CA's northern coast and kill a huge one. But I have no desire to kill a bear, especially in this gun-hostile anti-hunting state. I refuse to buy a CA hunting license. I do have an overwhelming desire to keep my kids and me from becoming a bear's dinner.

Now here's irony: after all of this, the one animal I most fear in the wild is mountain lion. You can't here those SOB's stalking you. It wouldn't matter what you have for defense. Once one of those beasts grabs the nape of a hunter's neck, he's dead within a second or two.

I once knew an archery hunter who was stalking a buck. He felt an unsettling feeling. He turned around to see a mountain lion stalking him. He was so undone by his very close encounter with certain death, that he packed up and went home.

 

[FEENIX]

FEENIX,

I'm still on the fence with bear pepper spray. If a scientist can isolate causality of oleoresin capsicum as causal of stopping wild, charging bears of a scientifically significant population to the elimination of all confounding factors, I'd be good. But I've read contradicting reports, some alleging the efficacy of OC spray on bears was agenda-driven junk science. But there's more.

As the guys in the video mentioned, grizzlies are extremely fast. So are black bears. If you're hunting with a rifle, a hunter would not have time to get his rifle out of his hands and reach for pepper spray. Also, on the day of attack, the older of the two said a breeze was blowing in his face which would've precluded use of spray. Were a hunter to get OC spray in his face, it will be all over but the bear dining on him.

When I hunt alone, I always hunt with a round in the chamber of my rifle. I never carry a handgun while hunting.

One has to be absolutely certain what would be the best available weapon for stopping any charging bear. Would pepper stray work better than an '06? If so, that would mean that while hunting in bear areas, pepper spray should be at the ready with rifle shouldered. But that makes no sense.

As we know, bears are extremely fast. Not many develop muscle memory, or what the hunters in the video called conditioned response. The terms are synonymous. However, there is a transference of muscle memory from bad guy tactical applications to all threats to one's life. It's all about responding under pressure as taught. For me, it's shooting and continue shooting until the threat ceases to be a threat.

Another consideration is to never surrender a tactical advantage. It would not be wise to shoulder a rifle and try to bring pepper stray to battery. And one must never use pepper spray where he might become contaminated by it.

I'm skeptical of "research" that indicates superiority of OC spray to a high power rifle. There would be plethora of differentiating factors to assume similarities of attacks. I've watched a video of a dude with balls the size of Saturn stand dead still at a charging elephant. He fired his second shot with the beast bearing down at him yards away. The beast immediately hit the ground. I've seen similar videos of hunters doing the same with African lion and Cape buffalo. The point is you gotta go with what you have most faith in saving your life. You might not get a second chance.

Had the younger hunter had his rifle ready to fire, he'd of killed that bear deader that dead with a shot from most high power rifles to the center of any bear's neck. That was a huge tactical error on his part.

I've never killed a bear. If I wanted to, I could drive to certain areas of the Eastern Sierra or CA's northern coast and kill a huge one. But I have no desire to kill a bear, especially in this gun-hostile anti-hunting state. I refuse to buy a CA hunting license. I do have an overwhelming desire to keep my kids and me from becoming a bear's dinner.

Now here's irony: after all of this, the one animal I most fear in the wild is mountain lion. You can't here those SOB's stalking you. It wouldn't matter what you have for defense. Once one of those beasts grabs the nape of a hunter's neck, he's dead within a second or two.

I once knew an archery hunter who was stalking a buck. He felt an unsettling feeling. He turned around to see a mountain lion stalking him. He was so undone by his very close encounter with certain death, that he packed up and went home.

As previously noted ...

When bow hunting and scouting, I carry my .44 Mag and a bear spray. When I'm hiking or camping, I have my Karelian Bear Dog with me.

My hunting buddy and I always carry a side arm and bear spray each when out bowhunting and take every safety precautions possible. The way I see it, I have the ultimate responsibility of my actions and will take as much bear defense I can have possible with me at my disposal should the occasion arises. The choice is yours, make them count.

Having said that, despite all the precautions, sometimes you get the surprise of a lifetime because Murphy does not discriminate like ...

This just happened a few day ago here in Montana >>> Man attacked by grizzly in Madison Mountains | The Madisonian

Cheers!

Ed

 

[SansSouci]

Good Morning, FEENIX,

I couldn't agree more. Self-defense against man or beast is every man's personal responsibility. When facing death, man's actions matter.

In some states, it's illegal to carry any firearm while archery hunting. Such a law is ludicrous when archery hunting in areas where bears reign supreme. There is absolutely no valid reason to deny any hunter adequate self-defense when in bear country. None. A man's life is far more important than any critter's life.

 

[Pdvdh]

I have a 3 inch 44 mag, a 6.5 inch 44 mag, and a 6 inch 10mm. My load in my 3 inch 44, through a chrono has approx 670 ft/lbs of energy. Same load in my 6.5 inch 44 has about 900 ft/lbs.

It needs to be realized however that if you are carrying a 3" model, that you won't have the same energy as a longer barreled version.

I shoot a 335gr hard cast semi-wad cutter bullet from my 2 1/2" barrel Ruger Alaskan at 1,200fps MV. 1,071 ft-lbs at the muzzle. I had to use a faster burner powder to get that last 100fps MV.

 

[Jeremyc]

Has anybody ever tried to quickly draw from a holster and rapid fire (with a heavy+long double action trigger pull) a powerful handgun?

I'm not talking about a 454 Casull or 460 Mag or 500 Mag even. Something reasonable like a 44 Mag.

I shoot some IDPA and local 3 Gun stuff. So I'm not unpracticed with shooting a handgun quickly.

I am also a fairly decent long'ish range handgun shot. I practice at 50 yards free hand a few times a year.

In the real world you would not be mentally prepared 100% of the time to draw and fire. But even in a range environment when we were already mentally prepared to draw and fire quickly, everyone that tried that day with the 44 Mag just honestly sucked.

Shooting at a silhouette sized target at a mere 10 yards, you will be surprised how often you miss. You would be surprised how often you can miss at 5 yards even. And our target wasn't moving... And we knew where to point and aim beforehand... And again, we were already mentally prepared to draw and fire quickly.

You may say that a bear is larger than a silhouette sized target. But you would still need decent shot placement to stop a big grizzly.


After all of that rambling I guess what I'm trying to point out is I bet we all suck much more than we give ourselves credit for in regards to shooting a powerful double action revolver quickly.

I don't live in grizzly country but if I did I would probably find the best deal I could on a no frills but reliable double barrel rifle in like 458 Win Mag or something and then do the paperwork to SBR it. It wouldn't weigh anymore than a magnum revolver and at least then you would have a shoulder fired rifle in a serious cartridge. You could probably even get it to fit into a holster for one of those Rossi Ranch Hands.


Edit: ****!t, now I'm thinking about another firearm I don't really need.

This is why I traded my 629 44 mag for a glock 20 10mm. I shoot a g19 9mm a lot, so I am very familiar with draw stroke, etc. I just pray that I won't see a grizzly. If I was expecting one, I would take a 12 ga with slugs or a 45-70 guide gun. Here is a local mauling that just happened and the bear spray didn't work

https://www.facebook.com/todd.orr/posts/10210413685967827

 

[FEENIX]

Here is a local mauling that just happened and the bear spray didn't work

https://www.facebook.com/todd.orr/posts/10210413685967827

He's one badazz Montanan!

 

[jmden]

More links:

Happened a couple of days ago apparently.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BLFtYIFja0t/

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/grizzly-bear-attack-todd-orr-montana-twice-bloody-facebook-video/

Here's his facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/todd.orr?hc_ref=SEARCH

 

[RevJim]

He really is a tough monkey! Not many people would have had the "oomph" to survive that second attack, especially since "most everyone" has that "nervous release" from the adrenalin rush the first time. Most people just collapse or are very weak, both physically and mentally. God's Grace was with him for sure!

 

[D.Camilleri]

I just got back from an elk hunt in grizzly country. Fortunately, I didn't have any run ins. I did however come across a camp located high on the mountain and my partner was telling me about minute old grizzly bear scat steaming in the snow several years ago near this location, when we approached the camp and asked about their hunting success, we asked if they had seen any bear activity. We were told to look at the fly on the wall tent where a grizzly had made his mark the day before. Then they told us about a hunter who had killed a sow and cub last year in self defense in the same area. These guys don't rely on pepper spray! I hiked over 12 miles that day with a 15lb pack, a 15 lb rifle and a 6lb 454 cassul in a cross draw alaskan holster. The extra weight wore on me, but my first reaction would have been to point and shoot in the event of a bear encounter that looked aggressive. I am not a fast shot by any stretch of the imagination, but I can hit 8 inch steel plates at 15 yards with very good accuracy in about 2 second intervals with my ported 454. Last year when a coyote crossed the road in front of me while traveling in the snow on my tracked atv, I doubted I had enough time to un -case my 22-250 rifle, so I shot the coyote at about 40 yards with my 454. I missed my first shot high, and center punched him with the second putting his lights out. I don't fire my 454 double action, I am much more accurate cocking and firing single action and that is how I shoot.

 

[SansSouci]

Correct me if I'm wrong: there have been two recent bear maulings in which OC spray failed.

Here's my biggest problem about pepper spray research: two captive grizzlies were used as test subjects. As we know, a population of 2 renders the test invalid. Moreover, there are plethora of confounding factors that could've caused captive bears to retreat from discharge of OC spray.

I'm sure bear spray manufacturers have made a fortune after the federal government forced tax paying American citizens to buy and carry it while in bear country. I'm sure the fines are huge for not carrying it where's it's required by law.

I know a woman whose kid is dating a recent law school graduate. Apparently he's a huge defender of the Second Amendment. He was hired pending CA's recent bar exam results at a So Cal firm that represents gun owners. I asked her how his firm earned revenue. She said by representing clients who are accused of violating gun control laws. I asked her if she thought more gun laws in this totalitarian state would increase his firm's business. She said something to the effect of, "Of course."

It's the same concept of gangsters fighting the 21st Amendment. Prohibition made gangsters a fortune. Of course they wanted alcohol to remain illegal.

One of my lawyer friends told me that he wouldn't be surprised to find out that Mexican cartels would try to prevent legalization of marijuana in California. They don't want to lose business to legal growers of marijuana. It's a moot point because DEA said it will enforce federal marijuana laws. Marijuana is always illegal under federal law.

In general, I have distrust of lawyers' motives. I would not be surprised to find out that states and federal lawyers' associations support more gun control. For lawyers, more laws = more business.

I would not be surprised to find out that bear spray manufacturers padded politicians' palms to pass laws that force us to buy their products.