Barbour Creek student take antelope @ 1507 yards

[Barbourcreek]

Check my math? Shoot holes in it - explain how you can measure wind perfectly (because that is what it takes to hit at that distance) AND be sure it doesn't change in the nearly 3 second TOF. Every one mph of wind blows the OPs bullet nearly 20" - that is twice as large as the vital area of an antelope. Again, if you shoot 7.5 inch groups at that distance (1/2 MOA), you will have a 100% chance of a miss if you miss the wind by .44 mph. In my experience, the wind almost never stays within .44 mph over a 3 second period when its average speed is 6 mph.

I shoot every day at LR; shot today at 784 and 1183 so I am speaking from experience, not a keyboard. I didn't even mention the fact that you need extremely low SDs or you will see vertical error as well. The factory load mentioned has a MV of 2695. What if it was only 2690? You hit 5 inches low, but you still have a 50% chance of hitting because half your bullets are going to hit above your center of aim. However, once your MV deviates by only 10 fps, you have a 100% chance of missing due to vertical error.

Maybe James can tell us how well his students do at wind estimation. Like I said, if you could measure wind perfectly using nothing but mirage guys like @DocUSMCRetired would not be spending his time trying to come up with a better solution.

Agree risky shooting factory ammo that far on an animal with SD on the 147 ELDM
Not what I do
My experience 38 years shooting long range military and civilian 3-6 seconds wind change

If he did not hit on the 1st round my guess is second would have been over or under

Was good wind skill good ballistics and some luck at that range no doubt but again it worked good for him

I've seen folks wound at 200 yards so distance is up to the experience of the shooter and equipments

I told him the animal could have walked during flight time, but I teach that in class

Any way all good.

 

[SeboCreek]

Anybody have any great plans for the weekend?

 

[RichCoyle]

Barbour literally admits that he told them not to shoot past 1100 due to the bullet velocities. He chose not to listen. I imagine the shooter does not have more experience than Barbour. That alone is evidence enough that they were unsure that the bullet would function at that distance.

The ELDM is not marketed as a hunting bullet, but its lethality has been tested extensively. This is why nobody has an issue with the bullet selection. Everyone has an issue with the speed that the bullet was traveling at impact.

Your comparison of the 215 Berger is pointless. You shot a much larger bullet out of a magnum cartridge at a shorter distance.

You don't know what the shooter knew.

But continue speculating.

 

[69precision]

That is factually incorrect. Not taking about ethics but statistics and physics. Putting aside the myriad other variables, missing a wind call by only a couple mph would result in a bad hit or miss at 1500 but not at 400. And there is a lot more possibility for varying winds across 1500 yards than 400.
And nobody is "managing the variable so well they don't miss" at 1500+ yards with a 6.5cm. And nobody ever talks about when they wound or miss. Back in "94 my buddy shot an elk with a 30-06 that we later measured at 990 yards. The part of the story I know, that he usually leaves out, is by the time he hit it he was on his second box of ammo.

It seems the experience level on this forum has significantly degraded over the year.
Once your at the level the OP is at your managing the variable so well you don't miss on game, you recognize a shot that is doable, you manage the details, you have a competent spotter give you input, that goat was as dead at 1500 as it would be at 400. The percentage of wounded game is significantly higher by people at close range who haven't cared enough about the game to put serious effort into shooting.
The people I know who can shoot at this elite level while hunting got there because they are holding themselves to a higher standard and then take action on that and with that come the potential for more range which is just a tool in a hunters toolbox making them better at what the end goal is and that is a clean kill!!

 

[dfanonymous]

That is factually incorrect. Not taking about ethics but statistics and physics. Putting aside the myriad other variables, missing a wind call by only a couple mph would result in a bad hit or miss at 1500 but not at 400. And there is a lot more possibility for varying winds across 1500 yards than 400.
And nobody is "managing the variable so well they don't miss" at 1500+ yards with a 6.5cm. And nobody ever talks about when they wound or miss. Back in "94 my buddy shot an elk with a 30-06 that we later measured at 990 yards. The part of the story I know, that he usually leaves out, is by the time he hit it he was on his second box of ammo.

So don't make a bad wind call. You guys are all doing the analysis paralysis.

If you hold a or any PRS titles, did you go home because the wind was tricky? Did you nerd out on hit probability on the stage? Just figure it out, or go home. You think it's luck, most people in the top spots stay in the top spots. It's luck if you can't reproduce it.

Do you think Litz and the AB team at Ko2M just or any of the other top competitors complain it's impossible to get the wind right? Or do they just do it and get it done?

That's the problem with the numbers argument. Make the right wind call. Shoot the wind. If you don't know how, then don't. If you do, go do the thing.

Sniper school pass fail shots, how do you think the instructors will respond when you come complaining about the course schedule distances and "the numbers being hard."

Perform or don't. It's that simple.

 

[bigngreen]

Check my math? Shoot holes in it -

I shoot every day at LR; shot today at 784 and 1183 so I am speaking from experience, not a keyboard.

Re run your wind numbers and you'll find it.

I have targets set at 358, 875, 1640 and 3200 and shoot quite a little and move them every few months and I build the rifles to do it, doesn't make me awesome, learning all the time!

 

[RichCoyle]

Where was he hit under the snout and was drt?a very valid question that needs answering,something smells here,BS maybe I surely hope not.

That "BS" thing for you is a really big deal!

 

[JAYgs8163]

That "BS" thing for you is a really big deal!

I was in the midst of typing the same thing.

 

[69precision]

Why?
Jealousy, arrogance, ego, little man syndrome, eternal pessimist, envy, WOKE………

I can't speak for others, but for me it's just the fact that it's simply not believable when people start spouting that someone with training can do this every time. It is a low percentage shot that this guy would miss a lot of the time for all the mathematical reasons articulated a couple posts above.

 

[Rick Richard]

I can't speak for others, but for me it's just the bs meter, especially when people start spouting that someone with training can do this every time. It is a low percentage shot that this guy would miss a lot of the time for all the mathematical reasons articulated a couple posts above.

But he didn't. Some can speculate if it was luck or skilled shooting. We will never know for sure. I am just happy for the guy getting his Lope. Some folks just can't accept it.

 

[JAYgs8163]

Anybody have any great plans for the weekend?

Yup, packing for a 2 week jaunt to Italy. Going Truffle Hunting in Tuscany.

 

[GSRetrievers]

Yup, packing for a 2 week jaunt to Italy. Going Truffle Hunting in Tuscany.

I'll trade you some pecan truffles.

 

[69precision]

So don't make a bad wind call. You guys are all doing the analysis paralysis.

If you hold a or any PRS titles, did you go home because the wind was tricky? Did you nerd out on hit probability on the stage? Just figure it out, or go home. You think it's luck, most people in the top spots stay in the top spots. It's luck if you can't reproduce it.

Do you think Litz and the AB team at Ko2M just or any of the other top competitors complain it's impossible to get the wind right? Or do they just do it and get it done?

That's the problem with the numbers argument. Make the right wind call. Shoot the wind. If you don't know how, then don't. If you do, go do the thing.

Sniper school pass fail shots, how do you think the instructors will respond when you come complaining about the course schedule distances and "the numbers being hard."

Perform or don't. It's that simple.

I agree 100%. It's simple that nobody can call the wind across 1500 yards within 1mph. It doesn't mean you don't try when target shooting. But the people claiming trained shooters never miss in situations like this is what is not supported by the math. If they just admitted "hey this was a 50% probability shot at best", then fine, that might be believable.

 

[ohlongarmisle]

That "BS" thing for you is a really big deal!

Op needs to answer the question,a subsonic hit on a coyote at 105 yards drt,under the snout,where under .Read my question valid and to the point.