Attention wildcat bullet shooters!

[Jon A]

[ QUOTE ]
Lets see here, I take a 300 gr Wildcat ULD, drive it to 3050 fps in the 338 Kahn, zero it at say 500 yards, then move up to 250 yards and shoot a group and measure group height and log it, then move out to 1000 yards and shot groups to measure bullet drop below point of impact and then test at 1300 yards as well.

From this I get a prediction of B.C.

Using this B.C. value I develope a drop chart out to 1500 yards which results in the ability to drop a bullet well within 1 moa of the target at any range out to 1500 yards.

THis is more then accurate enough B.C. prediction for me. If it is not for you then I am sorry.....

[/ QUOTE ]
Kirby, I don't see where you mention correcting for conditions anywhere. Are you back calculating these BC's back down to what they would be at sea level under standard conditions?

 

[Mikecr]

A couple weeks ago, I sent Richard a general inquiry, -Measurements. Richard insisted on sending me 25 or so for testing(his 142.5gr). I was pretty darn impressed with that.
He also asked "if any bullets would be perfect for me, what would they be?". A bullet maker actually asking me what I'd like, weird. Someone in the shooting industry, asking for customer inputs? No way!
Anyway, I get the impression that he's not interested in expanding production quantity. Just satisfying individual customers best he can. In light of that, I suggested a 110gr 6mm ULD/RBBT, and a 130gr 6.5mm in same form. But I realise one man can't just make everything under the sun.

We should help him out.
Maybe poll for most desired(with discussion)on each weight/cal, and negotiate an appropriate group purchase.
Good for Richard, and good for us.

 

[Matt27]

Mike

That is a hell of an idea and am sure Richard will go for that. He frequents this board so he will see it.

As Kirby said and you. Richard wants to make his customers happy and will do about anything you want, in reason.

Hell Daivd Tubb went to Sierra and told them the bullet he wanted them to make and was told NO!! So he found another makere to make the bullets and is selling a crap load. Can't keep stock fast enough. TO bad for sierra.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Jon A.

Yes I tweak the load for differing conditions and situations. To be honest, I could care less what my load is doing at sea level, I shoot at 3000 ft and up so it has no practical benefit to me to develope a B.C. model for sea level.

Also, I really do not care what the B.C. for my bullet is. I want to learn my bullets trajectory. Getting in idea for B.C. just gets me a starting point where I can build off from from there. THen it is on to field testing on actual targets at actual ranges.

I do not generally trust what a computer tells me the trajectory will be, I prove it to myself by watching exactly what the bullet actually does over range.

Time and time again, the Wildcats drop significantly less then the Sierra Matchkings. THis is all I am reporting. To me, in some way, this would tend to mean that they have a higher B.C. value then the SMK.

Now I know this is not scientific testing. Hell why don't we all jsut pool our money and get a doppler radar so we can do some real extreme range testing!!!

I'll throw the first $5.00 in /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif!!

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Matt27]

goodgrouper

I picked up stoney point tool to check the ogive measuremants of the 10 300gr bullets i have left from Richard. I will do some measuring and get back later today.

 

[goodgrouper]

Thanks Matt. I'll check back later.

 

[Matt27]

I measured the 11 300 uld's that i had. I took 4 measuremants for each bullet to see how consistant i was being and weighed each one.

1. 2.055,2.056,2.055,2.055--299.9gr

2. 2.056,2.057,2.057,2.056--300.0

3. 2.061,2.062,2.061,2.061--300.0gr

4. 2.065,2.066,2.066,2.066--300.1

5. 2.056,2.057,2.056,2.056--300.0

6. 2.061,2.062,2.062,2.062--299.9

7. 2.062,2.061,2.061,2.061--300.0

8. 2.057,2.057,2.057,2.057--300.0

9. 2.055,2.055,2.054,2.055--300.0

10. 2.061,2.062,2.061,2.062--300.0

11. 2.056,2.057,2.057,2.057--300.0

Doesn't seem too much of a variance to me but i have never sorted bullets before so i don't know and these were only 11 bullets. I just look at my target but am starting to get more in depth with my reloading.

For me it would seem more logical to sort bearing length as that is what contacts the lands but i don't have a second stoney point tool. Might have to get one. Your milage might vary from mine so take it for what's it worth.

Matt

 

[Brent]

I do quite a bit of testing with my M43 and would test some 30 and 338 cal bullets for BC. Last ones I tested were the 200 Accubond and the 210 JLK. I've been curious about these bullets of Richards for a while as well.

 

[texasdave]

I do not think I could add anything else better to say about Richard and his bullets than Kirby has said, but that in my dealings with Richard he has always shipped me my order and said if I liked them to send him the money, and if not send the bullets back. In my book no one could ask for any better. Ill bet there are few on this forum or anywhere for that matter that offers that blind leap of faith. So to sum it up if Richard said Santa was coming I would be hanging up a sock. He is better than super !!
Just my two cents worth /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[Jon A]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I really do not care what the B.C. for my bullet is.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, the numbers you're throwing out are being compared against other bullets rated BC's at sea level. That's probably the source of much of the arguement/disbelief here. Happens all the time.

Your measurements at 3000 ft are generally going to show BC's around 10% higher than the same thing done at sea level. Reducing them down to the same standard everybody else uses (or at least is supposed to) makes them much more plausible.

BTW, I would like to try some of these bullets in the future, I'm not trying to badmouth them at all. Just get accurate info. I have no doubt they drop much less than similar weight/caliber SMK's...but so do the plastic tipped bullets.

 

[goodgrouper]

Thanks for your time and data Matt.

It looks like Richards got the weights down good but I think there is room for improvement on the ogive variation. Just to be clear, these were the ogive measurements right? If so, they vary .011" which is .003" worse than my worst lot of Sierra MK's. I hope his match bullets are better than your 11. Any word when the match bullets will be ready??
I left him an email 3 days ago, and still no response.

 

[abinok]

goodgrouper,
Im glad to hear it! I will let you know when my wildcats arrive. After I get a chance to measure and weight them, Ill get a few pointed your way.

I for one did not find your example boring. I too agree that bullet consistancy is of the utmost importance, but if consistancy (and precision) is equal, ill take the high BC everytime.

4kedhorn,
I completly agree with everything you said, in fact I have already stated almost everything you have said! I know that his BC figures are predicted by the mfgs of his dies, and that they are approximate. Please review my previous posts for verification. I have exchanged emails several times with Richard. if you are interested, the pitchfork is still in the barn. It will stay there. No torch either, except for the british, then I have a surefire P9. Sorry, a weak attempt at flashlight humor.

fiftydriver,
There are a number of reasons that using drop data can and often does generate inaccurate BC figures. There are a number of people who have published information on this, the most accessable being sierra. I will try to get a link or copy posted here in the near future.
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1. They flat out shoot tight groups at all ranges

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I do not despute this, please see my previous posts.
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2. Richard will build you bullets to reach your goals, not sell you bullets he thinks you should be using

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This is exactly my experence, and of this he is certanly worthy of praise.
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3. Richard will build you a bullet that will survive and thrive at any performance levels you think you can come up with. Believe me I know a bit about this one!!!

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In a previous post I stated that if Richards bullets weren't good, you wouldn't be building rifles around them. I have already stated that I respect the experence you have, and your gunsmithing skills are well known on this board.
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4. Richard adopts your goals and dreams as his own when he builds your bullets. Its personal to him and you can tell this in the man and his product.

[/ QUOTE ]
please see number 2s response.
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5. When I order bullets from Wildcat Bullets, I am ordering from Richard himself and only Richard. He makes the bullets and only HE MAKES THE BULLETS. These are not mass produced bullets, they are true custom quality bullets.

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In a previous post, I mentioned that I believe that small firms turn out the best quality product. I intended this to be a direct referance to small companies that make specialty bullets, and the bullets they make, Richard included.
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6. When Richard Graves tells you something you can believe it to be the god honest true because I have learned he will not tell you anything that is not fact or will tell you that the information is not proven but predictions. He will also tell you if your idea is a bad one, which again is a rare thing when money can exchange hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, see the response to #2. I know that Richards BCs are predictions from his die makers, I believe I have stated that in every post on this thread so far....


[ QUOTE ]
You do not believe it, I do not care to be honest, if your not willing to open your mind and see that there is someone else out there personally busting his *** to further stretch the performance envelope of our sport then by all means keep using the same old same old.

Will the extreme bullets be accurate, shoot the **** things and see for yourself.

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I do believe that Richard is busting his ***, his service certanly proves that. Will they be acurate, I will shoot them when they arrive. I suspect they will shoot well.
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Are these bullets wonder bullets, no.

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If they have the predicted BCs, they most certanly are. There is little question that the very high BCs being predicted are a major reason that topics discussing Wildcat Bullets on this site are so popular
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Contrary to popular belief, The road most traveled seldom is the only road to the destination

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Personally, I prefer Elliot to Frost..... wait, sorry thats poetry, back to bullets.....

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If you want to test the Wildcat Bullets I would tell you to call or e-mail Richard and order some bullets just like everyone else has to do.

[/ QUOTE ]
as I have stated in previous posts (I keep saying that don't I) Ive got some on the way. If I still had access to a oehler 43, I would test them myself, since the chronograph perished along with a good friend in a automobile accident 4 months ago in Dallas, im looking for others who are willing to test them.
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But do not tell those of us that have tested them in the field that we do not know what we are talking about or that out testing methods are not giving accurate B.C. or any other excuse you have why these bullets simply can not perform this way.

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No excuses posed, just scientific fact. Drop data is not a reliable way to generate a BC.
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Oh, and then yes, ASK FOR US TO DONATE OUR BULLETS TO YOU!!

I think not.

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This was my favorite. I would think that a custom rifle builder who endorses only a specific kind of bullet would jump at the chance to have data on them verified by a source other than the mfg of the tooling. I have never asked to have bullets donated to me. If you read my origional post again, you will see that I am not testing these, nor requesting a high volume of bullets to be submitted.

[ QUOTE ]

mikecr

A couple weeks ago, I sent Richard a general inquiry, -Measurements. Richard insisted on sending me 25 or so for testing(his 142.5gr). I was pretty darn impressed with that.
He also asked "if any bullets would be perfect for me, what would they be?". A bullet maker actually asking me what I'd like, weird. Someone in the shooting industry, asking for customer inputs? No way!
Anyway, I get the impression that he's not interested in expanding production quantity. Just satisfying individual customers best he can. In light of that, I suggested a 110gr 6mm ULD/RBBT, and a 130gr 6.5mm in same form. But I realise one man can't just make everything under the sun.

We should help him out.
Maybe poll for most desired(with discussion)on each weight/cal, and negotiate an appropriate group purchase.
Good for Richard, and good for us

[/ QUOTE ]

Great Idea!
[ QUOTE ]

brent moffitt
I do quite a bit of testing with my M43 and would test some 30 and 338 cal bullets for BC. Last ones I tested were the 200 Accubond and the 210 JLK. I've been curious about these bullets of Richards for a while as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
brent, Ill send you a few as well when my wildcats arrive.

Fiftydriver, please read the 2 previous sentances again.

Here is a little paragraph I added to a previous post in an attempt to restate my opinions, and intentions about these bullets. Those of you who think I am in any way saying that these bullets are bad, please carefully read the following.

I hope nobody out there has the idea that im anti-wildcat or something. As I have said, im sure these bullets are accurate, if they werent, I don't think Kirby would be building rifles around them. On the flipside, the fact that so many, including HBC is sceptical of the BCs makes me sceptical as well. I don't believe Kirby, or Richard are being dishonest in any way. Neither do I believe that the die makers are lying, but I do know that there is no information that exists that shows that the BCs we have been discussing is accurate. Im just trying to find out, as I said in the first post, how much is hype, and how much is superior ballistic design.

Finially, to all those who emailed, thanks for your help, input, and experences. To those afraid to post, due to your "limited" experences, you aren't alone, so far there are six of you, all with the same experences (both in conclusions and in the sample sizes tested) Thanks especially to you.

Im sending bullets to be tested by those with the equipment to when they get here. There have already been 2 members here who are willing. Anybody else wondering about the BC's of their wildcats?

 

[Fiftydriver]

Jon A,

Your correct, everyone needs to test the bullets in teh conditions that they are shooting at.

Comparing one bullet at seas level to another at 3000 feet will certainly make a difference.

If I came off harshly toward you I apologize. Just can not understand the problem here. Get some bullets and test them as you plan to do and tell us what you find for your shooting conditions.

Again, if I offended I apologize.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Fiftydriver]

Adinok,

Will drop tests allow an accurate drop chart model to be formed?

Is it not far more important to know your true bullet trajectory then the exact B.C. of the bullet itself. All I do is use this drop method to find a starting point. That being a point where the bullets trajectory will be close over the range I plan on shooting the load. Then I take this prediction and put it into hard data but shooting at a variaty of ranged, tweaking the chart and shooting some more.

I am not a match shooter, no desire to be. But I am a big game hunter and an extreme range varminter and experimenter. I care very little what B.C. is labled on a bullet as long as it is predictable and accurate.

I have just found the Wildcats to produce less drop and less wind drift then mainly the Sierra Matchkings, at least in the 338 rounds.

To plot the trajectories these bullets are ACTUALLY producing, the ballistic programs must be loaded with a specific B.C.

This may not be the exact B.C., I can not tell you, all I can tell you is that they need these numbers for the ballistic programs to match up to the trajectories.

I think this whole thing as gotten a bit out of hand and I may have been part of that. If you or your friends have no ill will toward Richard then I apologize but I will certainly never apologize for standing up for a hell of a product made by a good man.

Again, if this has been a misunderstanding then no hard feelings and if I have offended someone that I should not have, I am sorry.

If your curious about the Wildcat Bullets, Just get some and try them. They are extreme performing bullets, in accuracy, ballistic performance and terminal performance.

Performing so well in all three areas is what really sets these bullets apart from the rest of the extreme range bullets.

With most you either get great accuracy with good ballistic performance but terminal performance is marginal.

Others will give you great terminal performance but generally will lack in extreme ballistic performance and often accuracy compared to a true match quality bullet.

The Wildcats give you all three which is a very new thing in our sport.

By all means, test these bullets, report the results because more guys need to be using these bullets, especially for extreme range big game hunting, there is really no competition for this use at extreme range.

I thought that was what we were here to talk about.

Finally, again, if I have offended some with no reason I am sorry, but Richard Graves is fully 50% of the reason my Allen Mags offer the extreme performance they do. I have tested these bullets, I have tried to destroy them with rotational stesses and shot them at ranges from 100 yards to 2000 yards and have yet to be totally satisfied with the Wildcats I have used.

Not every rifle will love these bullets, that is the nature of our sport but on average they are top notch in every feature and when you add all the features of the Wildcat Bullets up and compare them to any of the other match bullets, at least for use on big game at extreme range or even shooting for groups at extreme range, these bullets will run with any bullets every designed.

I use Wildcat Bullets, I build my rifles around Wildcat bullets. Everytime I take my rifles to the range and shoot the Wildcat Bullets I realize time and again these are something special.

One can hardly hold a 156 gr .257" ULD RBBT or a 350 gr .338" ULD RBBT bullet in your hand and not realize these are truely unique bullets.

This dog needs to be put to rest.

Test the bullets and report your findings, I will be excited to read your results and I will continue to post my test results as well.

We will be testing the Allen Magnums and the Wildcat Bullets for the first time in field tests here in early April. We will be hunting Exotic rams and will hopefully report back on how these rounds and bullets performed on game.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)