are carbon fiber barrels the wave of the future?

[bdyal1972]

What about the Christiansen Arms CF barrels? Do you have any data on their cooling? Mine starts throwing rounds after 3 shots very consistently. Groups great for the first cold 3 shots, then the group opens up significantly. I have read many threads saying groups opening up after a few shots is common

I think the argument of the military going to CF barrels for accuracy is laughable. They rarely do aimed fire. Ever watch videos of fire fights? They just hold their rifles above their heads and empty their magazines. Except for snipers, most don't aim their rifles. Even the machine gunners just spray ammo in a general direction where they think the enemy may be located. The Government Accounting Office (GAO) did a study that said the Army shoots on average 10,000 rounds for 1 hit.

" rarely do aimed fire"

I am sorry sir you are ALARMINGLY ignorant!


Tier 1 delta "assaulters" live and breathe center mass!!! THATS ALL THEY DO!!!

Rangers and seals live eat breathe center mass when moving, head shot when still

NO ONE FIGHTING WITH NVD DOES ANYTHING BUT PRECISION FIRE


THEN WE HAVE MARINES
"EVERYONE A RIFLEMAN"

Btw in the regular army "legs" use belt feds to clear paths, in general if you fire 200rpm a in bursts the enemy keeps there head down until you can shoot them in the back.... ASASSINATIONs from the side or behind are SAFER than a frontal assault.....

Escape/evasion drills, rapid reaction drills are based on the idea the enemy won't look up as each man does 1,2,3 magazine dumps towards the enemy as the squad or platoon dissappears....


Bullets clear walkways! Trails, canyons, creeks, stairs!


DO NOT MISQUOTE STATISTIS!!!

THE LEAST AMOUNT OF BULLETS I HAVE EVER SEEN FIRED IN AN IMMEDIATE ACTION DRILL WOULD BE APPROXIMATELY 360 TO 1440 ROUNDS FOR 6 GUYS, SURE IF WE SEE A TARGET ITS GETTING PULVERIZED!!!

HOWEVER THATS NOT THE POINT!!!

I WANT THOSE BASTARDS HEADS DOWN AS WE DISSAPPEAR!!!

THINK BRUCE WILLIS AND THE SEALS WHEN THEY ARE AMBUSHED IN "TEARS OF THE SUN" FOR YOU VISUAL LEARNERS...

CONTACT FRONT!
EVERYONE FIRES
WE ALL DUMP A MAG AND PEEL
OR
WE DUMP A MAG AND ADVANCE

EITHER WAY THE BAD GUYS ISTANTLY BECOME A NON RE FELEXIVE TARGET AS SOON AS WE SEE THEM OR A MUZZLE FLASH...

IN A EMERGENCY TO HAVE 3 GUYS DUMP 3 MAGS EACH AND 3 BELT FEEDS DUMP 2 BELTS EACH IS BETTER THAN OPENING AND USING A BODY BAG....

AND

1 LITTLE BIRD OR PAVEHAWK CAN COME THROUGH AFTER EACH FIREFIGHT AND REPLENISH OUR AMMO AT 100' AND 100MPH 24/7/365.... Even in the dark.....

IN THE ABOVE SCENARIO 870 ROUNDS EXPELLED IS CHEAP INSURANCE

AND

THEN ITS TIME FOR LIMA BEANS, HAM, TOBASCO AND A FRESH PINCH OF COPENHAGEN!!!!!!!!

IF WE DO GET SOME BAD GUYS HOPEFULLY THERES SOME INTEL AND MAYBE A TRINKET TO REMEMBER THEM BY WHEN WE GET HOME!



NOT SURE WHERE YOU GET YOUR FALSE INFORMATION!!!

"CHECK THAT S$#T!"

RESPECTFULLY

"EYEMAN"


YES I WAS NAMED THAT AS A MEATEATHER, surely was ON ACCIDENT, NO AIMED FIRE THERE!

NOT ACROSS A CLOSET NOR ACROSS 3 FOOTBALL FIELDS!!!

HOOYYYAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[bdyal1972]

Does a carbon wrapped barrel flex less, more, or same as a traditional steel barrel? Is it more consistent flex and easier to tune? I get the benefit of not having a nose heavy rifle. What I do not know is if the larger contour carbon wrapped barrel offers any grouping benefit over a traditional sporter barrel. This is the question for me. If the answer is no, I would rather have the sporter barrel on a lightweight hunting rifle.

Always less flex!!!

 

[wonderman4]

Nothing like another edited contest to hijack a thread that started out honest and good.

 

[Smithy62]

Lighthouse at sniper's hide posted a chart provided by Proof Barrels that showed actual temperatures and rates of cooling.
Why do people like you always need everything spoon fed to them?
Your computer has an app called Bing search and Google search
Try putting your questions in their search boxes and you will find dozens of references. That would be far more helpful that posting questions with such a cynical attitude here.
Your replies thus far seem like you are taking personal offense to the mere suggestion that new technology with modern materials can produce a better widget. Why should you care whether or not a carbon fiber wrapped barrel works better or not? Does it make your solid steel barrels any less effective? I know that my steel barrels do not care that I bought a rifle with a CF wrapped barrel; it hasn't affected their performance in any way. I do not care whether your steel barrel is better or not than carbon fiber. Someone asked a question regarding the suitability of carbon fiber wrapped barrels and I simple posted easily found accurate information which for some reason upsets you and causes you to attack me personally as if I have some agenda to promote.
I posted links earlier, try clicking and reading, you might learn something.
Want more information? Try that search feature in your browser. There is easily a weeks worth of reading material available for those that want to expand their knowledge base.

No offence, but I hope you realize that either you sound like one if their ideal victims these mfg'ers are targeting or you are one of their 'hidden' products marketers, posing as an highly interested customer, lol ? Taking anything of theirs or other websites as true glorious gospel could well be the quickest way to a small financial mistake, so please allow me to wake you up from your pleasant CW wet dreams! There still is the teoretical & the 'real' practical world! For one: you don't have any control of what they're actually using as an inside steel-liner if it is SS or CrMb2 and 2ndly, you have no idea about the amount of stresses induced to these 'liners' to reduce it to such thin dimensions! Over these past few years I've ended up rebrl'ing quite a few of these CW brl's back to standard steel ones, some with my own proprietary deep-fluting, which comes close to the CW weight class brl's, but then with all those benefits that fluted brl's should naturally have. None of these CW brl's could cut the mustard, while most had their throats severely cracked & torched out and none was even being remotely close to the actual factories achievable & pro-claimed rnd counts, so what does that tell you? I won't throw out name brands, but quite a few wouldn't even shoot worth a dime from 'the get go' and one has to wonder how their enclosed test-targets are being produced? At least two of them had to be boxed back up & sent back to get theirs replaced inside their warranty period with new replacement brl's at the factories, just to be returned 11 & 17 months later respectively with slightly lesser, but similar problems! The only one I managed to but back and hang onto, I cut open on the mill and displayed it not so great looking structural interior integrity or lack thereoff, without any surrounding commentary while setting up tables at one of the local gongshows a couple of years ago, just to discover that it had unexplainably disappeared from one of my tables the early next morning of the 1st day, along with some 12 boxes of a certain caliber ammo, which is an different story again! Anyway; I know what I would pick for a custom brl: no matter how much marketing 'bs' comes along with it, it definitely wouldn't be any CW brl one, but I would maybe reconsider a C-tensioned one just for laughs & giggles !
Here's just one example of what proper deep-fluted steel brl groups can look like!

 

[tacomHQ]

Please see:

TACOM HQ Structured Barrels ~ Rex Reviews

We do not produce any carbon fiber versions at this time.
We do believe carbon fiber barrels absolutely have their place.
We took a different route specifically addressing harmonics, extended round count (which is irrelevant to a hunter), active cooling, extremely wide nodes, acceptance of bullet weights and barrel life.
Computer simulations can be seen at TACOMHQ.com. We too have hung weights on our barrels for semi real world comparisons but the proof (no pun intended) is in the pudding.
Our standard test, recently performed with a world ranking F1 group, is with our 300 Norma. We shoot 230gr Berger Hybrids, Sierra 190 MK, and 168 Sierra MK's. Velocities range from 2950 for the 230's, 3100 for the 190's and both 3400 and 2200 for the 168's. All produce sub 3/8moa groups with less than 1/2moa shift total left to right. This was with F1 shooters used to laminate guns versus our chassis systems.
Heat gain- on a typical 85degree day of 16 rounds will give us about a 15deg heat gain with the 300Norma shooting full charge 230's. The chamber is the coolest point on the barrel.
The F1 guys immediately bought two barrels...

 

[bdyal1972]

Please see:

TACOM HQ Structured Barrels ~ Rex Reviews

We do not produce any carbon fiber versions at this time.
We do believe carbon fiber barrels absolutely have their place.
We took a different route specifically addressing harmonics, extended round count (which is irrelevant to a hunter), active cooling, extremely wide nodes, acceptance of bullet weights and barrel life.
Computer simulations can be seen at TACOMHQ.com. We too have hung weights on our barrels for semi real world comparisons but the proof (no pun intended) is in the pudding.
Our standard test, recently performed with a world ranking F1 group, is with our 300 Norma. We shoot 230gr Berger Hybrids, Sierra 190 MK, and 168 Sierra MK's. Velocities range from 2950 for the 230's, 3100 for the 190's and both 3400 and 2200 for the 168's. All produce sub 3/8moa groups with less than 1/2moa shift total left to right. This was with F1 shooters used to laminate guns versus our chassis systems.
Heat gain- on a typical 85degree day of 16 rounds will give us about a 15deg heat gain with the 300Norma shooting full charge 230's. The chamber is the coolest point on the barrel.
The F1 guys immediately bought two barrels...

NOW THAT MIGHT BE EMPERICAL PROOF!!!

DO WE HAVE AN INDEPENDENT GROUP TO VERIFY????

GYN TESTS FOR ELR?

BUSINESS IDEA?

 

[tacomHQ]

check out our website
TACOMHQ.com
It is mainly 3rd party inputs. Shooters, gun builders, load developers.. high end computer analysis.
The day Rex shot- they shot 4 different rifles. The gas gun (Rem 260) shot 4 different bullet weights from 3 different manufactures. 16 rounds dropped into the exact same sub 1/2 moa group.
You will see testimony from across the board 6mm to 416Barrett.
For the hunters- a typical 300caliber barrel (26" or less) is sub 6lbs. Our TRG with our barrel 26 is just under 10lbs.
Not light weight, but then some of us (like me) can't dream about going up a mountain side without a helicopter attached to my back side. Now shooting up the mountain...

 

[Pdvdh]

No offense, but I hope you realize that either you sound like one if their ideal victims these mfg'ers are targeting or you are one of their 'hidden' products marketers, posing as an highly interested customer, lol ? Taking anything of theirs or other websites as true glorious gospel could well be the quickest way to a small financial mistake, so please allow me to wake you up from your pleasant CW wet dreams! There still is the teoretical & the 'real' practical world! For one: you don't have any control of what they're actually using as an inside steel-liner if it is SS or CrMb2 and 2ndly, you have no idea about the amount of stresses induced to these 'liners' to reduce it to such thin dimensions! Over these past few years I've ended up rebrl'ing quite a few of these CW brl's back to standard steel ones, some with my own proprietary deep-fluting, which comes close to the CW weight class brl's, but then with all those benefits that fluted brl's should naturally have. None of these CW brl's could cut the mustard, while most had their throats severely cracked & torched out and none was even being remotely close to the actual factories achievable & pro-claimed rnd counts, so what does that tell you? I won't throw out name brands, but quite a few wouldn't even shoot worth a dime from 'the get go' and one has to wonder how their enclosed test-targets are being produced? At least two of them had to be boxed back up & sent back to get theirs replaced inside their warranty period with new replacement brl's at the factories, just to be returned 11 & 17 months later respectively with slightly lesser, but similar problems! The only one I managed to but back and hang onto, I cut open on the mill and displayed it not so great looking structural interior integrity or lack thereoff, without any surrounding commentary while setting up tables at one of the local gongshows a couple of years ago, just to discover that it had unexplainably disappeared from one of my tables the early next morning of the 1st day, along with some 12 boxes of a certain caliber ammo, which is an different story again! Anyway; I know what I would pick for a custom brl: no matter how much marketing 'bs' comes along with it, it definitely wouldn't be any CW brl one, but I would maybe reconsider a C-tensioned one just for laughs & giggles !
Here's just one example of what proper deep-fluted steel brl groups can look like!

Hahaha,

Somebody, somewhere, told me if every rifle owner purchased a Proof Carbon Fiber Wrapped barrel, we could collectively reverse Global Warming! Now I'd be cautious about this, as too many super-cooling barrels could tip planet earth into the abyss, into another ice age.

Another benefit I seem to recall, posted on some forum by somebody..., it could help Proof acheive zero carbon emissions, in spite of the obvious fact they emit carbon with each CFW barrel manufactured! I have to admit, it was hard to wrap my head around that one. I think I believe it though, because it makes me feel pretty good.

I also think I read somewhere, the rumor that A/C Guy has been recruited by Proof's marketing division. No rationale was provided for their recruitment effort. Now this might have been posted on the Hide, but again, I can't be certain, so don't hold me accountable for any of the information within this Post. I'm just providing information someone, somewhere, at some point in time, presented. Again, this is all based on my recollection. On the other hand, if any of the information provided in this post makes you feel better, you're welcome to believe it in its entirety.

NOW THAT MIGHT BE EMPERICAL PROOF!!!

Emperical proof of what?

tacomHQ stated in the first sentence of his post, "We do not produce any carbon fiber versions at this time."

 

[Bruce Treloar]

I've worked with carbon fiber on my race cars. You never use more than the minimum amount of epoxy because the epoxy itself is the weakest part of the compound (the same is true when working with fiberglass). More resin used = a weaker finished product that is likely to crack. You can always tell how much experience a person has with those materials simply by looking at how much excessive resin was used.
Most commercial fabricators use either a vacuum method to draw the epoxy into the fibers or they use pre-pregged mat and bake it. There are YouTube videos showing both methods if you want to see the Hows and Whys.

Nice to see someone knows something about CF lay ups. The direction of the fibers would also be important, unidirectional down the length of the barrel seems the best option. Removing all the excess resin would be another must do. Just to call it CF wrapped is not enough information for me. One only has to look at some of the resin rich composite stocks in the market to know barrel wraps will be the same. I have toyed with the idea of doing a CF barrel for years but am concerned about the different expansion of the two materials.

 

[corsteve]

is carbon fiber better or not nobody says the right answer only they have a carbon or steel so whats the answer i have both

 

[Tulsa Reiner]

A/C Guy,
Do you happen to know which one of those the carbon fiber barrel manufacturers are using? If so, how do you know? I mean, your posts are infused with such confidence.

Knowing what is theoretically possible with carbon fiber tells us nothing about what we're actually receiving in any carbon fiber wrap (CFW) barrel. Thermal conductivity coefficients, on the other hand, tell us EVERYTHING we need to know about their heat transfer properties and capabilities.

So, can you provide the thermal conductivity coefficients of the CFW material being used by the CFW barrel manufacturers? If you provide that number, I'll calculate and provide the cooling efficiency of the CFW portion of those barrels compared to plain carbon steel and or stainless steel barrels. With accuracy equal to the accuracy of those CFW thermal conductivity coefficients. It's not rocket science for me, an engineer with substantial heat transfer education and practice. You provide the thermal conductivity coefficients, and I'll calculate how efficient, or deficient, their CFW materials are.

If there are two different coefficients, one for longitudinal heat transfer and one for radial heat transfer, please provide both coefficients.

FYI, and this may be a huge shocker to you, the last time a Christiansen Arms rep provided a thermal conductivity coefficient to one of our members for their CFW media, it was 3-4 times LESS efficient shedding heat than plain steel. That rep has probably been fired since then.

No other manufacturer has provided a heat transfer coefficient for their CFW, to the best of my knowledge. Go figure...

Which prompts the question, how do you know whether or not any of the currently manufactured CFW rifle barrels transfer heat more efficiently than solid steel barrels? You simply a believer in the company sales literature? Because unless you've conducted some defensible testing of your own, can provide independent heat transfer testing reports, or can provide documented thermal conductivity coefficients, I can't imagine how you could know anything more than what we've been fed by the manufacturers. Is your source of information the individuals being paid to promote a company product? The promotional literature prepared to pump up product sales?

So it boils down to this..., will the companies making the sensational claims of super-cooling CFW barrels share their thermal conductivity coefficients? They either have them or they don't. If they don't, then they can't possibly know how well their barrels shed heat.

I'd like to settle this heat transfer debate. Would you? How about the companies promoting sales of their CFW barrels, with claims of super-cooling benefits?

I will suggest that up until know, they're either 1) unable to provide their CFW media heat transfer coefficients because they themselves haven't paid a third party testing company/laboratory to establish them or, 2) they're unwilling to provide the data.

So far, I don't see where you've demonstrated you know anything more than I, or anyone else posting in this thread, of the heat transfer capability of ANY CFW barrel currently in production. I don't see that changing until, and unless, you explain how it is you're the one in the know. If you've got the prerequisite data, share it here with the interested forum membership. Share those heat transfer coefficients. Show me I'm wrong. I'll be waiting...

I can tell you from my experience with two CF barrels, one a CA rifle, and one a Gunwerks rifle, that they conduct heat very poorly. Meaning that only after about 6 rounds, closely spaced, do they start to feel warm. At first I thouight this was great-- no hot barrel. But then I realized, the heat of the powder ignition has to be somewhere. It must be retained in the core of the barrel. So I now believe that the failure to transfer the heat is not a good thing when firing on the range. I wish I had a long temp probe to I could measure it near the dhamber for a couple of minutes after firing a round, and compare it to a steel barrel firing the same cartridge.
Has anyone done this?

 

[Pdvdh]

Bingo! Many times folks posted in this Forum about how cool to the touch their carbon fiber wraps felt, mistakenly believing this demonstrated cooling efficiency. If you followed the history of owner/user comments, you know this was true. That's probably how the whole fallacy and promotional/sales pitch originated. Proof manufacturing maybe figured this was a gift horse, a gimme. The uniformed kept misinformed by the multitude of believers.

When I pointed out their 'slow to warm to touch" delight meant just the opposite, next thing I know, CFW barrel owners started saying the exterior of their barrels warmed up quickly. Pretty humorous.

So I then pointed out the obvious, that they'd changed their position, that their CFW barrels now warmed up quickly - even got hot. Suddenly they were irritated and then mad. Just like A/C Guy bringing "mommy may I' into a post. Temper tantrums.

The thrill of victory, the agony of defeat...

 

[Paper boy]

Alex Wheeler chucked up numerous carbon and steel barrels in his lathe. Attached a 10 pound weight on the end and measured deflection for the test. You know. Real measurements. Not something the internet or manufacture says. I own a few carbon barrels. They have there place. But not in matches. I like Bartlien carbons cause they have more steel than proof.

My opinion of course. You can't replace real stainless steel!

 

[bdyal1972]

Bingo! Many times folks posted in this Forum about how cool to the touch their carbon fiber wraps felt, mistakenly believing this demonstrated cooling efficiency. If you followed the history of owner/user comments, you know this was true. That's probably how the whole fallacy and promotional/sales pitch originated. Proof manufacturing maybe figured this was a gift horse, a gimme. The uniformed kept misinformed by the multitude of believers.

When I pointed out their 'slow to warm to touch" delight meant just the opposite, next thing I know, CFW barrel owners started saying the exterior of their barrels warmed up quickly. Pretty humorous.

So I then pointed out the obvious, that they'd changed their position, that their CFW barrels now warmed up quickly - even got hot. Suddenly they were irritated and then mad. Just like A/C Guy bringing "mommy may I' into a post. Temper tantrums.

The thrill of victory, the agony of defeat...

Just 2 cents


The layup decides the heat RELEASED from the BARREL!!!

Proof made their "bones" extending m4 full auto mag dumps from 8 30rnd mags to 20 30rd mags BEFORE exceeding 3moa @ 100 yards!!!

As I understand it from my son and 3 former ncos I mentored

Cf wrapped m4s and a couple other necessary " toys " , cf is the secret to keep in the fight and fewer upper replacements in the field.......

Make firefight accuracy degradation and dynamic reaction to ambush accuracy degradation " a thing of the past"

I know the most experience I have is elemental at best...

However

I have seen 2moa OR LESS groups at a 1000 with ONLY CF WRAPPED BARRELS on semi auto 300 win, 6.5prc and 30-06 in the infamous jeff Cooper 10/10/1000 challenge in the long action sub 10# class...

MOST IMPORTANTLY

1.5" DIAMETER 30" BARRELS IN LONG ACTION MAG CARTRIDGES ARE EASY TO BUILD A 9# LOADED WITH SCOPE, BIPOD AND SLING.....

AT 48 I FINALLY CARE ABOUT WEIGHT....

DONT NEED 3 LAWS ON TOP OF THE PACK OR 3 CLAYMORES!!!!