APS 6mm-250 w/105 Berger Strikes...........5 times on the same doe

[Fiftydriver]

Bill,

Your experience is very similiar to what I have also witnessed with the smaller caliber bullets on the Berger and SMK family. For deer, I personally do not recommend then in any caliber smaller then 7mm for hunting deer for the reasons you just witnessed.

Now before everyone starts getting their shorts in a knot, I know full well they will work most of the time, BUT, there is a higher likelihood that you will get results just like Bill got with these two bullets. In larger calibers, go fer it, they perform much better terminally then the smaller calibers.

Also, the 6-250 is not a powerhouse of a round, plenty for deer out to some very long ranges but it does not have a surplus of powder to make the match bullets work well terminally.

I think you will find the 105 gr A-Max will be a totally different beast on deer and should perform much better on those "on the fringes" hits like your first hit on this doe.

Good thing is you got her and you were responsible enough to take the time to make sure you got her. None of us like seeing an animal linger after being shot but it happens from time to time even with the best prepared hunters but you did the only thing a respectable hunter can do, follow up and track her down and end it as soon as you can.

I think the 105 gr A-Max may solve your problems in this area as expansion will be much better and at the velocity potential of the 6-250, it will perform very well as a big game bullet as it will not be over stressed.

Good job on the track down and recovery!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[reed mosser]

I too had the same problems on deer this year with target bullets. I shot a doe at 400 yards and buck at 50 yards with the 100 grain wildcat rbbt out of my 22-243 ackley going 3300 fps. The shot at 400 yards killed her first shot but there was no bullet expansion just a quater sized hole. The same with the buck at 50 yards. I too had the same problem with 180 bergers at 3000 fps out of 7 wsms , they would just poke holes no expansion. On the other hand my i built my friend another 22-243 ackley shooting the 80 a-max at 3500 fps and the deer never took a step and the damage was impressive. The shoulder was almost not attached and had very large fragment holes through the chest. For me and the way i hunt, if it doesn't have a plastic tip i won't be using it for hunting. I love the bergers match kings wildcat bullets for punching paper but not for killing potential. This is just my experience in hunting under 700 yards. Thanks again Reed

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

Bill- Yah I would say that little 6mm-250 shoots. I mentioned that caliber to my dad the other day and was telling him about it. He likes the idea of it! Anyways, my experience with berger bullets has always been 7mm and 30 cal. I have only shot a couple deer and couple coyotes with them, 7mm 168g, and 30 cal 210g and let me tell you I had no signs of lack of expansion. It was the total opposite for me. Great expansion, but still comepletely penetrating. I to watched Bergers promo video on there VLD's and can remember a couple bucks, if not the one GG mentioned being walloped by that 105g VLD.

 

[screech]

here we go again on the match bullet round about. Now I am torn on this. a few years ago you couldn't have paid me enough to shoot a smk. Lost to many from the pinhole effect. This year I for some reason used them and man was I impressed with them out of my 6.5x284. very mild load shooting them at around 2600-2650. Some very impressive performance. Not as good as the btips but was acceptable in performance for me. The bergers I have only used in the 30 cal with the 185 and the 210. the 185 on deer and the 210 on coyotes, chucks and ground squirles. I was impressed but these were being pushed out of ultra mags. Im having a 338-378 improved and will be shooting the big 300 out of it. Ill keep my fingers crossed on it for performance. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[lerch]

I think the big difference here is in frontal area. On the 7mm, 30cal, even 6.5cal you have a decent amount of frontal area to initiate expansion. On these little 6mm bullets the frontal area is very small and the meplat is sharp enough to poke ya!! I wish BJ had taken some pics of the first shot on the doe, the smallness of the entry and exit wound was amazing. THe amax should deliver better results.

steve

 

[Fiftydriver]

I hope my comments do not start a war of words about if the match bullets should be used on game. That was not my intent. I have no problem at all shooting big game with match bullets.

My comment was only based on my experience that the smaller diameter match bullets do not perform particularly well on big game at long range where energy and retained velocity has dropped significantly.

This is not the fault of the bullet or the chambering it is used in, just simply a matter of the relatively light, relatively low BC bullets shedding velocity and energy at a rate that will limit their expansion at longer ranges and in some cases any ranges.

I have always found a match type bullet will colapse in on itself upon impact and then if velocity is high enough and the bullet has enough retained kenetic energy, will then force the nose of the bullet to deform outwardly in some form of a mushroom.

Yes, bullet energy has something to do with bullet expansion.

Also, with the larger caliber match bullets, they are larger in frontal area so they move more tissue as they pass through the target. In return, the target tissue pushes back on the bullet with more force because of the larger frontal area.

Kind of similiar to comparing bolt trust in a rifle. Take a 223 Rem and load it to the 70,000 psi range(OVERLOAD!!!) and you will still have very little bolt thrust developed. Take the same receiver design and load a 338 Lapua to 70,000 psi and the bolt thrust is expodentially larger. still the same 70,000 psi in pressure but the much larger area of the Lapua case exerts that same force over a much larger area which translates into higher botl thrust.

Same with a penetrating bullet, the larger calibers have more frontal area, and thus there is more resistance on them as they penetrate which will cause them to expand to a higher degree then the smaller caliber bullets.

This has been my experience with match bullets in 22 and 6mm cal rounds compared to larger diameter match bullets.

The 6.5mm in my opinion is on the fringes. Yes it will work great in most cases but still its a bit light in my opinion for anything larger then deer. That being said, I would never think twice about shooting any deer with my wifes 6.5mm AM with the 142 gr SMK loaded to 3550 fps. But there again, there is a surplus of retained energy working for the bullet.

Again, did not want to start a debate on if match bullets should be used on game, I just feel any match bullet used on game will perform much better if its 7mm in cal or larger.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[davewilson]

was talking to an experienced LRH this week and he uses a 30-378 with an 8 twist/220 gr SMK. he's convinced that the 8 twist is much more effective for bullet expansion based on his and a couple friends results. he previously had a 10 twist and didn't get as consistant or dramatic wound channels.

i can say the 105 a-max is impressive on deer.shot a doz or so and they always worked great.i would also agree the 7mm is minimum for big game.might even change that to 30 cal if i was leaned on a little!

 

[Fiftydriver]

Dave,

Many african big game hunters have tested fast twist bullets when using big bore solids and have reported that the faster then needed twist helps bullet stability after impact to penetrate in a straight line which is always better then a bullet veering off course.

As far as expanding bullets go, higher RPM certainly stress a bullets jacket to a higher degree then lower RPMs which would more then likely result in more dramatic bullet deformation upon impact to some degree, how much I can not say.

I will say that I have shot several high intensity varmint rifles in rounds such as the 22-6mm AI and I would say your comments are accurate, I have just not tested in a big game rifle.

I can say that my 7mm AM using the J-4 based 200 gr ULD RBBT performs identically no matter if its shot out of a 1-7 twist, a 1-8 twist, a 1-8.7 twist or a 1-9 twist. On game up to the size of heavy deer, they all perform so close to identical its impossible to tell a difference, caliber entrance hole and 3/4" exit with bullet expansion beginning after roughly 6" of penetration. In this case velocity made no difference and really neither did range testing on game from 300 to 850 yards this year.

Like rifles, bullets have their own personality as well I suppose.

Kirby Allen(50)