Anyone using the Horus Reticle?

[bruce_ventura]

I agree that is an impressive shot. The video editing certainly makes it look simple. The hunter just rotates the turret knob to a measured range value, aims, fires, and bags a whitetail buck! The hunter claims the deer fell a few yards away - I didn't see that on the video but I'll take his word for it.

The video demonstrates that you can ignore variations in altitude, barometric pressure, temperature, inclination angle, and get "lucky" (the hunter's words). In this case the hunter was using a very flat shooting magnum cartridge (always helps, as long as you can shoot it well), was probably hunting close the elevation the rifle was zeroed at, had almost no wind, and the slight downward inclination probably compensated for the lower temperature (opposite ballistic effects).

However, ballistics is a science and you can't conceal the truth of ballistics with a well edited video. Just consider the same .264 Win Mag cartridge, and 140 gr VLD hunting bullet, a +/- 0.5 in Hg pressure variation, a 5,000-10,000 ft altitude variation, a 35-70 degree temperature variation, and an inclination variation of 0-20 degrees. The point of impact at 760 yds in a 10 mph wind can vary by about 2 ft vertically and 1 ft horizontally due to those environmental factors. Then add wind estimation error (up to about 10" horizontal spread) and a 7-10 in spread due to the rifle/ammo/shooter dispersion for cold bore shots from a field position.

Relying in a simple BDC turret knob, with a "click here or there" of correction is not going to let you make that shot under a variety of environmental conditions. The variation in the point of impact is too large, and the calculation of the corrections is too complicated for most people (except for Augustus) to make reliably in their head. Certainly, you can get "lucky" and have some environmental factors cancel each other out. But you can also get unlucky and have all these factors add against you - resulting in a missed shot or a suffering animal.

That is why people rely on a ballistic computer. Once you go that route, you can use either some variation of a mil dot reticle, for which you have to dial in the elevation and hold for wind, or a Horus reticle, for which you hold for both elevation and wind. The Horus reticle is faster and supports quick second shots.

The video also suggests why you keep promoting this BDC reticle approach when simple ballistics says it's not reliable. I'm guessing you have either bought into or are selling this Greybull Precision story that making long range shots on big game is as simple as turn a knob, aim and fire. Well, it's a nice story, but ballistics says it won't let you make a 760 yd shot reliably in variable environmental conditions.

The good news for the rest of us is that a well-trained shooter, using the right caliber, a good rifle/scope and match ammo, can make that shot quickly and reliably using a ballistic computer. That is, a ballistic computer will correct for the environmental variables and reduce the variation in point of impact to nearly just the wind estimation error and the rifle/ammo/shooter dispersion.

 

[LouBoyd]

The good news for the rest of us is that a well-trained shooter, using the right caliber, a good rifle/scope and match ammo, can make that shot quickly and reliably using a ballistic computer. That is, a ballistic computer will correct for the environmental variables and reduce the variation in point of impact to nearly just the wind estimation error and the rifle/ammo/shooter dispersion.

That little caveat of "reduce the variation in point of impact to nearly just the wind estimation error" is largest and most ignored problem. Wind vector measurements taken at the shooter location no matter how accurate they are, are not adequate for predicting downrange wind deflection at ranges and conditions where the total wind deflecion is several times the acceptable shooting error. No commercial wind meter I know of has the ability to compensate for downrange wind. It's up to that "well-trained shooter" to decide if the wind over the bullets trajectory can be determined well enough and to make the necessary corrections. Learning to dope wind by other methods than a local wind meter and shooter judgement of the accuracy of their wind esitmates are still as necessary as they were before ballistic computers and precision wind meters became available. The technology for an insturment to measure downrange crosswind may become commercially available in the near future but it's not here now.

Any long range shooter should do their own tests to determine how much their point of aim differs from point of impact with whatever method of determining wind deflection they use. If that method does not do a reliable job of achieving an acceptable kill zone in the conditions they shoot the only solutions are to recduce the distance, only shoot in calm conditions, or find a better method of predicting wind deflection.

 

[cummins cowboy]

I agree that is an impressive shot. The video editing certainly makes it look simple. The hunter just rotates the turret knob to a measured range value, aims, fires, and bags a whitetail buck! The hunter claims the deer fell a few yards away - I didn't see that on the video but I'll take his word for it.

The video demonstrates that you can ignore variations in altitude, barometric pressure, temperature, inclination angle, and get "lucky" (the hunter's words). In this case the hunter was using a very flat shooting magnum cartridge (always helps, as long as you can shoot it well), was probably hunting close the elevation the rifle was zeroed at, had almost no wind, and the slight downward inclination probably compensated for the lower temperature (opposite ballistic effects).

However, ballistics is a science and you can't conceal the truth of ballistics with a well edited video. Just consider the same .264 Win Mag cartridge, and 140 gr VLD hunting bullet, a +/- 0.5 in Hg pressure variation, a 5,000-10,000 ft altitude variation, a 35-70 degree temperature variation, and an inclination variation of 0-20 degrees. The point of impact at 760 yds in a 10 mph wind can vary by about 2 ft vertically and 1 ft horizontally due to those environmental factors. Then add wind estimation error (up to about 10" horizontal spread) and a 7-10 in spread due to the rifle/ammo/shooter dispersion for cold bore shots from a field position.

Relying in a simple BDC turret knob, with a "click here or there" of correction is not going to let you make that shot under a variety of environmental conditions. The variation in the point of impact is too large, and the calculation of the corrections is too complicated for most people (except for Augustus) to make reliably in their head. Certainly, you can get "lucky" and have some environmental factors cancel each other out. But you can also get unlucky and have all these factors add against you - resulting in a missed shot or a suffering animal.

That is why people rely on a ballistic computer. Once you go that route, you can use either some variation of a mil dot reticle, for which you have to dial in the elevation and hold for wind, or a Horus reticle, for which you hold for both elevation and wind. The Horus reticle is faster and supports quick second shots.

The video also suggests why you keep promoting this BDC reticle approach when simple ballistics says it's not reliable. I'm guessing you have either bought into or are selling this Greybull Precision story that making long range shots on big game is as simple as turn a knob, aim and fire. Well, it's a nice story, but ballistics says it won't let you make a 760 yd shot reliably in variable environmental conditions.

The good news for the rest of us is that a well-trained shooter, using the right caliber, a good rifle/scope and match ammo, can make that shot quickly and reliably using a ballistic computer. That is, a ballistic computer will correct for the environmental variables and reduce the variation in point of impact to nearly just the wind estimation error and the rifle/ammo/shooter dispersion.

BV, you have drank the horus cool aid. does the system have merit, yeah, is it the be all end all long range system for hunters I say no. I just revisited their site and watched some videos etc. FOR SOME REASON ITS LIKE THE TACTICAL CROWD DOES NOT UNDERSTAND OR KNOW THERE ARE TURRETS THAT ARE PRINTED WITH THE RANGES FOR YOUR TAILORED LOAD. I have no idea why this is lost on that segment of the shooting public. I look over at snipers hide all the time and none of those guys I have seen are running printed turrets like that. one would think after years of the marines running the unertls they would like BDC turrets, because that scope only came as a BDC turret setup. and you used the veneer adjustment to add or take away .5 moa at a time from the marked turret. actually IMO a pretty clever system but for the outdated mildot reticle. maybe its because tactical guys aren't typically big into reloading like the hunters are with most running factory ammo. many might not even own a chronograph. the point is, tactical guys can learn from what we use and we can learn from some of their equipment and practices.

no I have not bought into the graybull cool aid, but what they do offer is a setup or pieces of the puzzle that when combined with a good shooter and good equipment makes for a simple setup. I would encourage you to visit their site and look at their reticle it has 1 moa wind hold offs, if you look carefully these hold offs are also marked on the turret. its all right on the turret you don't get out software or range cards. if you are going to be shooting in different situations then yeah you better know what effects those have. OR one can simply just change out the turret. BTW playing around on JBM I proved what I have already been saying the difference between shooting an animal at 5000 feet and 10000 feet with JBM's default load looks to me like 308 load is .7 moa difference. which since the horus reticle is divided into .2 mil hashes is less than ONE hash mark!!!!!! further playing with temperature at 700 yards I adjusted it to 80 degrees then down to 15 degrees the difference was .1 MOA, (that surprised me)

next angle compensation, the horus reticle has the same problem. you have to know the adjusted range or the adjusted hold. This can be accomplished several ways which I will not go into. the easiest being swaro's new el range binocs which give a corrected range. and you just dial the corrected lesser range. the horus reticle does not have an advantage that I can see with inclined shots. both systems must know either the corrected range or the corrected elevation amount. I would argue with rangefinders already having this feature that show the corrected range that this more easily interfaces with a marked BDC turret.

the horus system looks combersome with the PDA system that hooked to an RF unit. one also has to ask what happens if the PDA isn't working to spit our software or you forgot the range card. no range card no hunting, I used to use a range card taped to my stock and then just dial the range with a standard unmarked turret. its a way slower system than a marked one.

next wind, of course this must be judged by experienced shooters, both systems need practice and time on range. also at long ranges your load better be shooting and tested to at least 500 yards. working up a load that works for that requires IMO a very in depth knowledge or reloading. both the horus and the dial and hold for wind systems have the same weakness, the shooter must accurately judge wind hold.

lastly on the horus video they act like oh just change out the scope to a different gun and start shooting. problem is they act like the scope does not have to be rezeroed to that rifle. the same can be done with a standard turret scope, just rezero and change out the marked turret.

 

[Augustus]

Gentlemen, I do not advocate throwing your ballistic computer away and rely on the formulas I shared with you. I started using these formulas in conjunction with the Atrag and made a game of seeing how close I could get to the correct solution each time I ranged a target. I can get very close with either the 308 or the Edge unassisted by any devices out to the ranges that Temp and Altitude are accurate.

If I know the Barometric pressure I can go further. I have to have a Kestrel for that and if I have that I will have Atrag since they are in one neat package now. Anyway use any device available to assist you with your solution.

The BDCs work nice but I like the option of switching scopes to different rifles and loads. The Horus or any other Mil or Moa based reticle gives you this capability. If you like BDCs use them.

 

[bruce_ventura]

...BTW playing around on JBM I proved what I have already been saying the difference between shooting an animal at 5000 feet and 10000 feet with JBM's default load looks to me like 308 load is .7 moa difference. which since the horus reticle is divided into .2 mil hashes is less than ONE hash mark!!!!!! further playing with temperature at 700 yards I adjusted it to 80 degrees then down to 15 degrees the difference was .1 MOA, (that surprised me)...

That surprises me too, because the ballistic drop changes you cite are way too low. Obviously, with these ballistic drop values, you would (incorrectly) conclude that a BDC reticle is more accurate than it is. You have to use the JBM website software carefully to avoid erroneous results.

Go back and try a trajectory calculation with these settings (JBM - Calculations - Trajectory):
Select this bullet from the library:
Sierra, 0.308 cal, 168 gr, HPBT MatchKing™
Enter these values:
Muzzle Velocity: 2650 fps
Distance to Chrono: 10 ft
Zero for the next eight boxes (sight height - cant angle)
Wind and target values should not matter
Plot results from 0-700 yds.
Zero range: 100 ft (but it will be ignored due the settings at the bottom of the page)
Temp: 80 F
Pressure 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 78% (changing this value has almost no effect)
Altitude: 5,000 ft
Uncheck box that says "Std atmosphere at altitude".
Check the box that says "Pressure is corrected"
Use default values for next two boxes.
Column 1: 1 inch. Column 2: 1 MOA
Uncheck all the boxes at the bottom of the page.

Click the calculate button. You should get something like this:
Trajectory
Input Data
Manufacturer: Sierra
Description: HPBT MatchKing™
Caliber: 0.308 in
Weight: 168.0 gr
Ballistic Coefficients: 0.405 [0-1600], 0.424 [1600-2100], 0.447 [2100-2600], 0.462 [2600-5000] G1
Muzzle Velocity: 2650.0 ft/s
Distance to Chronograph: 10.0 ft
Sight Height: 0.00 in
Sight Offset: 0.00 in
Zero Height: 0.00 in
Zero Offset: 0.00 in
Windage: 0.000 MOA
Elevation: 0.000 MOA
Line Of Sight Angle: 0.0 deg
Cant Angle: 0.0 deg
Wind Speed: 10.0 mph
Wind Angle: 0.0 deg
Target Speed: 10.0 mph
Target Angle: 90.0 deg
Target Height: 12.0 in
Temperature: 80.0 °F
Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 78.0 %
Altitude: 5000.0 ft
Vital Zone Radius: 5.0 in
Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: No
Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Zero at Max. Point Blank Range: No
Target Relative Drops: No
Mark Sound Barrier Crossing: No
Include Extra Rows: No
Column 1 Units: 1.00 in
Column 2 Units: 1.00 MOA
Round Output to Whole Numbers: No
Output Data Elevation: 0.000 MOA
Windage: 0.000 MOA
Atmospheric Density: 0.06040 lb/ft³
Speed of Sound: 1138.9 ft/s
Maximum PBR: 313 yd
Maximum PBR Zero: 262 yd
Range of Maximum Height: 135 yd
Energy at Maximum PBR: 1763.8 ft•lbs
Sectional Density: 0.253 lb/in²

Calculated Table

Range Drop Drop
(yd) (in) (MOA) ​

0 0.0 ***
100 -2.6 -2.5
200 -10.7 -5.1
300 -25.2 -8.0
400 -46.9 -11.2
500 -77.0 -14.7
600 -116.6 -18.6
700 -167.5 -22.8

I only showed the first three columns of calculations. Bullet drop at 700 yds is -167.5" (-22.8 MOA).

Now repeat the calculation, changing only temp and altitude values as shown:
Temp: 80F and Altitude: 10,000 ft. -> Bullet drop at 700 yds is -157.0" (-21.4 MOA).
Temp: 15F and Altitude: 5,000 ft. -> Bullet drop at 700 yds is -175.4" (-23.9 MOA).

Do the math and you find that increasing altitude raises the point of impact by 10.4" (1.4 MOA).
Likewise, decreasing temperature lowers the point of impact by 7.09" (1.1 MOA).

These single parameter effects make sense when you think in terms of changes in air density and bullet drag. When you start combining the major effects (altitude, barometric pressure, temperature and line of sight angle (uphill/downhill)), you find that they can add up to some pretty large shifts in the point of impact. The BDC knob approach ignores all these environmental effects. Easy to use? Yes. Accurate at long range? Not so much.

 

[cummins cowboy]

The BDC knob approach ignores all these environmental effects. Easy to use? Yes. Accurate at long range? Not so much.

how does the BDC knob ignore all this?? I can't keep saying but both systems have the same weakness and in that all the variables have to be accounted for and adjusted for. both systems operate under the same parameters. however with a BDC turret AND with the horus system those differences don't even become evident till beyond 500 yards. so unless you are way off shooting at sea level which I never do anyways, all my shooting is done at a minimum of about 5000 feet in elevation. both systems need to be adjusted for huge swings in parameters. the horus is no exception.

another thing some guys do with their bdc turret is shoot at some rocks at 6 or 700 yards, then they will zero the turret at that range. this can be done in the field and will further close the gap in parameters if their BDC turret is exactly set for it.

 

[chucknbach]

A "click here or there" at >700 yds? Really? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one. Perhaps you're using a super flat shooting cartridge, you never shoot up or down hill, you always zero your rifle at the same elevation you hunt at, and the barometric pressure never changes where you hunt. For me, however, a one click correction or a BDC reticle won't cut it at that range. Variations in elevation, barometric pressure and inclination can easily throw a shot off a foot or more at 700 yds, which turns an ethical shot into a miss, or worse, a wounded animal that wanders off for hours. I wouldn't attempt a shot at that range unless I was using a ballistic calculator and was confident in my wind estimation.

Really? Your going to use the ethics and wounded crying animal suffering forever argument?


Check this out. Play with it and decide for yourselves. I like that there's choices.

scroll down to the online demo.

Horus Vision : System 5

 

[Rockfish Dave]

Off topic, but I hate when I click on a thread with a subject that looks interesting just to see one person (with no expirience on the subject in question) just derail a potentially positive thread... it gets old.

 

[bootpig]

Personally Im a huge fan of the Horus reticle because I feel that when coupled with a good Rangefinder it is a lot faster to use than turning turrets. It also enables much more accurate follow up shots because you can simply place the grid where the shot fell exactly where you want the next shot to land. You can debate the likeliness of a follow on shot while hunting if you want but I like to have the ability to do it accurately if the opportunity presents itself.
Now I noticed a few people who mentioned the time it takes to "dig around and find your range chart" I personally have a small range/wind chart that I have printed out in a 40mm circle that I glue onto the inside of my occular lens cap. Look throu the scope with one eye and you can just open the other eye to see your range chart, then line up the corresponding grid line on your Horus reticle and squeeze the trigger. If you have a system that is faster and more accurate than that Id like to see it. And im not being sarcastic, seriously show me and ill switch over ha.

 

[toddc]

hard to believe in this day and age that there are shooters unaware of the profound effects atmosphere has on ballistics. Most common reason I miss at LD is weather not wind. A 300smk cooking out is pretty easy to wind shoot. BUT miss the atmosphere by a bit and its a miss. Of course Im talkin about 600++. And if you dont think there are common 2nd round opportunities at long range you havent done much of it. Ive killed deer at 1300 that an idjit at 800 had shot at 5--6 times. I shot a coyote at 2500 m/l that I shot at 8 times. It actually spotted for me by looking where the bullet hit. My rangefinder wouldnt stretch that far so I put it in my palm from the section lines and walked it in. Any system can work. The horus reticle is probably the best for wind and speed of use. ANY SYSTEM NEEDS WEATHER INFO or you might as well shoot a burris bdc out to 700 and be done.

 

[CRaTxn]

That little caveat of "reduce the variation in point of impact to nearly just the wind estimation error" is largest and most ignored problem. Wind vector measurements taken at the shooter location no matter how accurate they are, are not adequate for predicting downrange wind deflection at ranges and conditions where the total wind deflecion is several times the acceptable shooting error. No commercial wind meter I know of has the ability to compensate for downrange wind. It's up to that "well-trained shooter" to decide if the wind over the bullets trajectory can be determined well enough and to make the necessary corrections. Learning to dope wind by other methods than a local wind meter and shooter judgement of the accuracy of their wind esitmates are still as necessary as they were before ballistic computers and precision wind meters became available. The technology for an insturment to measure downrange crosswind may become commercially available in the near future but it's not here now.

Any long range shooter should do their own tests to determine how much their point of aim differs from point of impact with whatever method of determining wind deflection they use. If that method does not do a reliable job of achieving an acceptable kill zone in the conditions they shoot the only solutions are to recduce the distance, only shoot in calm conditions, or find a better method of predicting wind deflection.

Wind Reading is the gorilla in the room and reading mirage seems the best method short of the ZIN of 3,000 shots down range. What are the best tutorial hopefully video that you are aware of ?
[email protected]

 

[Springville shooter]

Maybe I'm weird but I have and use both systems on my scopes. The custom turret sits on top and the holdover reticle lives inside. I am proficient with both and choose which to shoot based on the circumstances. This thread seems to suggest that you have to make a definitive choice between the two. Why?-------SS

 

[sscoyote]

I also love the Horus reticle, and wished they never discontinued their 1.5-8X Blackbird scope. Thought it'd be a great compact long-range setup, and especially good on a dedicated portable coyote rig.

Tried the Horus Predator on a Ruger Charger/Kidd barreled rig and when maximized I can net ~150 MOA turret and reticle out of it with a 100-yd. zero. Takes the 22 Long Rifle to 600 yds. and even beyond. Can't imagine a better setup for colony varmint shooting where ranges change constantly. Although the Rapid Reticle would also be a great choice for longer range 22 shooting.

What I'd love to see is a more affordable optic setup with an HV reticle. Everything so far is 500 (Horus Hunter) and above. Could make a lower-priced rimfire optic a semi-serious affordable long-range option.

 

[CRaTxn]

Though cheaper than truly fine internals for turrets, the laser etching of that much data with tight tolerances is still quite expensive and thus the moderately higher price breaks. The Pride Fowler 22 reticles are very good on my very accurate Savage 22s.