Ammo Shortages--Federal Agencies Stockpiling Excessive Ammo- IRS alone over 5 million rounds.

[irishtxn81]

This is from a treasury dept document titled "Criminal Investigation's Firearms Training and Qualification Oversight Needs to Be Improved"

In performing the IRS's law enforcement mission, Criminal Investigation (CI) special agents execute search and arrest warrants on those suspected of violating U.S. tax laws and other Federal statutes over which the IRS has jurisdiction. When performing their duties, special agents carry firearms and may use deadly force to protect themselves and the public. Suspected criminals, who face the prospect of incarceration, may violently resist arrest regardless of how minor the crime may seem. CI special agents must be fully prepared to respond with force when necessary. Special agents not properly trained in the use of firearms could endanger the public, as well as their fellow special agents, and expose the IRS to possible litigation over injuries or for damages.

That may have that authority but I seriously doubt the hard *** cop is working for the IRS. And since you are working the google machine, how many arrests do these people make every year? How many shooting incidents?

My point is that they don't need 3x the amount of firearms, or $5,000,000 of ammo

 

[JimFromTN]

There are 3300 total employees in the IRS criminal Investigation division. Only 2200 of them are special agents who carry firearms.

But there are now more armed non Department of Defence civilians in govt. agencies than there are Men and Women in the United States Marine Corps. Over 200,000 civilians carrying firearms work for non DOD governmental agencies.

There are only 186,000 people in the whole USMC.

Seems lopsided to me.

The IRS agents have been around since 1919. They have been buying ammo for over 100 years. These people make arrests and execute search warrants. They have a jurisdiction. They are law enforcement. You want to take bullets away from law enforcement.

 

[JimFromTN]

That may have that authority but I seriously doubt the hard *** cop is working for the IRS. And since you are working the google machine, how many arrests do these people make every year? How many shooting incidents?

My point is that they don't need 3x the amount of firearms, or $5,000,000 of ammo

The IRS does not have 3x as many firearms as agents. Those firearms include both semi auto and fully automatic weapons. Its not $5million in ammo, its 5 million rounds of ammo. If they are a law enforcement agency, the numbers are not outrageous. My friends son usually has 2 side arms and an AR when he goes on duty. I imagine if an IRS agent executes a search warrant on a drug trafficker or someone in organized crime, they may want more than just a single side arm when they do it.

If they want to disband the criminal investigations division and hand that jurisdiction over to another agency, that is fine but the other agency is going to hire more people, buy more ammo and weapons so I am not sure it will have an affect on the number of rounds that are purchased by the government. They may actually buy more ammo.

Every year federal agencies buy ammo and yet people are suggesting that they are doing it to keep ammo off the shelves. They are doing a poor job of it because 9mm and 556 are on all the shelves and if you shop around you can find them at close to pre-pandemic prices. Maybe they are buying up all the hunting rounds because I am having a hard time finding 270win on the shelves.

 

[Veteran]

Yep, the government could be operated more efficiently. We have 45,000 Border Patrol Agents. They have been around since 1919 too.
They have a jurisdiction too. They are law enforcement too or used to be before they became baby sitters and bus drivers in our current government.

They aren't allowed to enforce any laws. If they do, they lose their jobs. They don't get to train at the range anymore. What's the point?
Nobody can be arrested. Why doesn't their budget for ammo get shared with the IRS?

Oh, its because they used that budget allocation to buy pallets of baby formula to hand out?

So, another shortage for citizens is created by mismanagement from our own government.

The list of mismanagement, and disenfranchisement of American citizens by their own government goes on and on.

Want to learn about scarce costly oil reserves from Americas national strategic petroleum reserves Our government just sold to China to put in their strategic petroleum reserves?

At the height of the highest historic gas prices ever, where Biden is screaming at oil companies to lower prices (not produce more oil), he is simultaneously selling our strategic oil reserves to China instead of to American refineries to make more U.S. gasoline.

We could go on and on and cover a whole host of sins and errors.....

Too much ammunition at the IRS instead of money spent on modern computers and people to process returns is only the tip of the iceberg......

 

[JimFromTN]

So we are changing the discussion from the IRS purchasing ammunition for their criminal investigation division to border patrol which there have been no budget cuts and there are increases in their budget for more agents and more supporting technology. Of course, then we need to make the jump to the US exporting oil to china. I am assuming this change is due to the fact that the IRS purchasing really isn't the huge deal that people are trying to make it out to be and there is nothing to support the conspiracy that the IRS is buying up ammunition to keep it out of the hands of law abiding citizens. Someone is screaming the sky is falling when it really isn't. Imagine that.

What is funny about this is that the numbers have not changed in the amount they are stockpiling. The irony is that while Trump is president, it was the wall street journal and forbes that were reporting on it and now that Biden is in office, its fox news.

 

[Veteran]

Nope, Im just pointing out the gross mismanagement going on. Agencies should share resources better. I firmly believe what IRS needs is modern computers that dont run on 286 chips and floppy drives......not more bullets.

And EPA and a dozen other alphabet agencies, same deal.

I'd give more leeway to the ATF and FBI, especially if they would focus on gangs and illegal activities and criminals and not mom and pop domestic terrorist parents at school board meetings......

But if you would like to include government ethics and mismanagement and Econ. 101 we can certainly talk about gas prices, energy policy, Afghanistan, Hunter Bidengate, ClintonRussiagate,
ChinaSPRgate, Covid Vaccine Mandates, especially in our military and first responders, and any number of other wonderful wrong things our present goverment is doing or has done like buying up ammunition, closing or trying to close Ammunition Facilities like Lake City to civilian purchases,
and actively proposing to abolish the 2nd Amendment or stack the Supreme Court to do so.

This is not a citizen friendly, liberty friendly, 2nd Amendment friendly government, and it would be wrong to assume if we look the other way, and don't ask too many questions they will do the right thing....

That "right thing" is obviously very different depending on what you believe, and what you represent.

I havent seen this administration do one thing, that I agreed with, other than perhaps support for Ukraine.
Even there, motivations maybe less than clear depending on an investigation into U.S. DOD supported bio weapons labs in Ukraine.....The program begun by Mr. Obama circa 2006 as a Senator.
Top secret funds, classified so no public disclosure can be had.....27 facilities.....What and Why? Joe Biden put in charge of what country as V.P. in the Obama Admin.
Ukraine......

So, does 5 million rounds of ammo at IRS, EPA, etc. etc. matter? Maybe when you consider the track record of these folks, and trying to close Lake City.........yeah, I think its a concern. It should be asked about and looked into.

Where's the money for modern computers? Trillions to waste.

Not one cent spent wisely on real infrastructure.......

 

[JimFromTN]

Actually, you are. Now we went from the IRS criminal investigation division buying ammunition to Hunter Biden and vaccine mandates. This is the very definition of whataboutism which is the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue.

The IRS has had armed agents and been buying firearms and ammunition for 100 years. The 5 million rounds was brought up during the Obama administration. That number has not changed since Obama so there is no basis for todays conspiracy that Biden's IRS is trying to get ammunition off the streets by hoarding 5 million rounds. This conspiracy started after Sandy Hook when people hoarded ammo and it became impossible to find. Its like saying the government hoarded toilet paper back during the pandemic to keep people from wiping their backsides. There are no similarities to the EPA which ironically the EPA was given police powers in 1988 during the Reagan administration.

The true irony here is that its the republicans that are trying to defund a law enforcement agency.

 

[Veteran]

Speaking of Forbes.. Here is what they said. You cannot find this using Google by the way......Its censored I guess.

Why Are Federal Bureaucrats Buying Guns And Ammo? $158 Million Spent By Non-Military Agencies

Updated figures on guns and ammunition purchased by the Internal Revenue Service, Health and Human Services, Veterans Affairs, Education Dept., Social Security Administration, Small Business Administration, the EPA and other paper-pushing administrative agencies.

www.forbes.com

This is a breakdown of the ammo the IRS has stockpiled recently:

• 3,151,500 Pistol and revolver rounds
• 1,472,050 Rifle rounds
• 367,750 Shotgun rounds
• 56,000 Fully automatic firearm rounds

According to reports from the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration (TIGTA), the IRS has repeatedly failed to ensure that procedures relating to firearms are properly followed.

"There is no national-level review of firearms training records to ensure that all special agents meet the qualification requirements," according to the report.

A TIGTA report found that special agents at the IRS Criminal Investigation Division (IRS-CI) accidentally fired their weapons more often than they intentionally fired them

This is from their own IRS Inspector General.

Here's another source on what government agencies have begun doing and how much ammo they are buying.

https://www.investors.com/politics/columnists/obama-homeland-security-vast-ammunition-purchases/

According to one estimate, just since last spring DHS has stockpiled more than 1.6 billion bullets, mainly .40 caliber and 9mm. That's sufficient firepower to shoot every American about five times. Including illegal immigrants.

To provide some perspective, experts estimate that at the peak of the Iraq war American troops were firing around 5.5 million rounds per month. At that rate, DHS is armed now for a 24-year Iraq war.

And then there is this:

https://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/USPS-ammo-purchase-federal/2014/04/14/id/565541/

A little more than a year ago, the Social Security Administration put in a request for 174,000 rounds of ".357 Sig 125 grain bonded jacketed hollow-point" bullets.

Before that, it was the Department of Agriculture requesting 320,000 rounds. More recently, the Department of Homeland Security raised eyebrows with its request for 450 million rounds — at about the same time the FBI separately sought 100 million hollow-point rounds.

The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration also requested 46,000 rounds.

This is what I'm really concerned over.......what enforcement does the NOAA have? They can't even predict the weather!

The federal government is really out of control, and all these agencies arming up are not arming against the Chinese. or the Russians. They are aiming at normal law abiding citizens who go to school board meetings I guess........

 

[JimFromTN]

Speaking of Forbes.. Here is what they said. You cannot find this using Google by the way......Its censored I guess.

Why Are Federal Bureaucrats Buying Guns And Ammo? $158 Million Spent By Non-Military Agencies

Updated figures on guns and ammunition purchased by the Internal Revenue Service, Health and Human Services, Veterans Affairs, Education Dept., Social Security Administration, Small Business Administration, the EPA and other paper-pushing administrative agencies.

www.forbes.com

What is funny about this is that the numbers have not changed in the amount they are stockpiling. The irony is that while Trump is president, it was the wall street journal and forbes that were reporting on it and now that Biden is in office, its fox news.

Like I said, forbes was reporting it back when Trump was president and now its fox news. Oh, the irony. The forbes article you posted was back in 2017.

Here is one from 2019.

IRS Has 4,500 Guns, 5 Million Rounds Ammunition: Paying Taxes?

IRS cases rarely become criminal ones, but don't forget that the IRS does have a criminal investigation division--with guns.

www.forbes.com

Notice it says 5 million rounds. Thats the same number they are using today so based on that, there has not been any increase in purchasing by the IRS. Perhaps other agencies have but this thread is about the IRS and how Gaetz is trying to pass a bill banning the IRS from purchasing ammunition. Its not about the EPA, DHS, or the lunch ladies association. I imagine any agency that requires security will need firearms and ammunition. Any agency that makes arrests would need firearms and ammunition. I don't understand anyone being surprised that the Department of Homeland Security would want bullets. They have 72,000 agents and officers that are required to carry firearms. Seems like they would need allot of bullets.

Here is a wsj article from 2016

Why Does the IRS Need Guns?

After grabbing legal power, bureaucrats are amassing firepower. It’s time to scale back the federal arsenal.

www.wsj.com

Here is an article from 2012.

Why Is Social Security Stockpiling Bullets?

Granny, get your gun? The Internet rumor mill has been buzzing in full force after the Social Security Administration posted notice of a recent ammunition purchase. Why would the agency responsible for pension and disability benefits need 174,000 hollow-point bullets?

blog.aarp.org

NOAA weather service never requested 46,000. It was NOAA Fisheries Office of Law Enforcement . That was from 2012

This Is Why NOAA Supposedly Ordered 46,000 Rounds Of Ammunition

www.businessinsider.com

None of this is new. This has been going on for years and there is no basis to claim that it is the government is trying to keep ammunition out of the hands of citizens. Whether or not the agencies need the amount of ammo that they are requesting should be dealt with on an agency by agency basis. You don't just lump them all together. Law enforcement in general has been going paramilitary since the 90's.

 

[Veteran]

Yes, and only two agents in the IRS history have ever died in the line of duty......One was shot in Illinois by a direct report IRS agent who worked for him.....and the other died in a suicide by plane crash into the IRS office in Austin, Texas.

So, no record I could find of the IRS ever being a gunfight with anyone?

Sounds like 600 rounds per year is the going rate for training across all these admin. agencies with law enforcement employees.

So, 2200 agents armed at IRS x
600 rounds per year = an annual requirement of 1.32 million rounds not 5 million.

Give the more computers and processing agents, not bullets.

 

[JimFromTN]

Yes, and only two agents in the IRS history have ever died in the line of duty......One was shot in Illinois by a direct report IRS agent who worked for him.....and the other died in a suicide by plane crash into the IRS office in Austin, Texas.

So, no record I could find of the IRS ever being a gunfight with anyone?

Sounds like 600 rounds per year is the going rate for training across all these admin. agencies with law enforcement employees.

So, 2200 agents armed at IRS x
600 rounds per year = an annual requirement of 1.32 million rounds not 5 million.

Give the more computers and processing agents, not bullets.

I love when people say they would rather the money be used on computers like we just need to give them new desktops. The reason nothing has been done is because it would be a monolithic undertaking. I was going to guess at least a billion dollars and 3 years. I went and looked it up and the irs estimates $2.5 billion and 6 years. Looks like it will be complete around 2030. The hardware will be the cheap part. They have to rewrite all of the software as well. Developers and security guys make good money. These people make so much money that their wives can be stay at home moms. Of course, there will be bugs which should be allot of fun for all of us. There is no way to write a system that big without major bugs. Hopefully they have good backups.

As for each agent given 600 rds to training, don't you think you aught to give them a few more to use in the field. What if they want to practice outside of training?

 

[Veteran]

You know, I probably believe in law enforcement a lot more than you may. The difference being, I believe in local, local, local.
Everything should be taken care of at the lowest level by those closest to it. Ironically, and maybe its a misnomer but the founders referred to the distributed power to the States as "Federalism", where the federal government and the States have shared power, not all power residing at the central government. I always thought that was an oxymoron---the name doesn't connote that too well.

I believe in small government, decentralized, and liberty for the people. I believe in a Republic not a Pure Democracy.
You may love big government, and swear by Democracy.......Most people don't know the difference between Republicanism and a Pure Democracy. You see I really prefer the rights of the minority be protected, not the rights of the majority. Protecting the rights of the majority actually becomes the Tyranny of the Majority Mob Rule-- Read the Federalist Papers-James Madison.
(The pledge of allegiance also says to the Republic for which I stand......I'm so glad they got it right! But, soon I'm sure someone will ask them to change it to the Democracy........)

I refer you to this link where I have tried to explain myself on Democracy vs, Republicanism---(and I don't mean this in a political modern day context whatsover, but in the context of the framing of the original constitution and a system of government structurally).

Take a stroll through this link below and you will understand where I am coming from:

Why the 2nd Amendment Was and Is Needed--How Our Constitution Was Framed

The Bill of Rights has only 10 amendments to our original Constitution. That's not bad for a document that has survived 235 years. It is the world's longest suriviving charter of government. The 2nd amendment comes only after the 1st amendment which has to do with freedom of speech. So, the...

www.longrangehunting.com

You may not agree, but you will understand my frame of reference.

I hate to say it, but the way Democracy is bantied about today, it has almost become a dirty word. It does not mean freedom or liberty anymore.

So, give me small government that sticks to their main job, whether it is processing and collecting taxes, or regulating in some sensible and reasonable fashion clean air and water. They needn't become fascist, nazi-like agencies, overzealous and obtrusive, and unreasonable, and power exercising agencies which are filled with unelected beaurucrats and deep state career ugly folks.

They will please me just fine if they perform their functions, serve the people, not crush them, and do what is needed, not what they want to do necessarily. No agendas,,,,,,just service thank you.

So, no philosophically, I don't think they need to arm up, and become brown shirt agency armies to lower the boom on citizens who are paying the taxes that employ them.

The federal government has begun to treat people, its own citizens like colonists, instead of its stakeholders and customers.
That's what the original tea party was all about. Rebellion against taxation with no representation and the usurping of individual liberty and abuse of power by the King and parliament far far away from the colonies......sounds like Washington D.C.?

To some extent, this has begun again. Thank goodness we have checks and balances and courts in our government or it would have already gone completely south.

I'm not against law enforcement. I am for it 100% and then some, just at the right level with the right amount of enforcement and as local as possible. I am also very much against waste.....and what I see is tremendous inefficiency and waste in the federal government. Where are my tax dollars going and why?

You and I just very very different beliefs, ideas, and world views. Its likely to stay that way.

 

[JimFromTN]

What about when crimes cross state lines? What about things like tracking terrorists, drug traffickers, and human traffickers?

 

[Veteran]

Im sure that thiae are all bad things, the most important and primary reason for a federal govt. in the first place is national defense.

Got no country ( or borders) none of the rule of law issues are even relevant.

And there is the FBI, and the ATF, and the DEA. But they wouldnt matter if China takes over.

All these agencies like IRS and EPA,
Commerce, Energy, Education.
They need to focus on their primary functions and serve the citizens.