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Ammo makers using SECRET powders
- Thread starter hemiford
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Elmer blew up quite a few handguns doing just that! He was well known for reducing.44 Spl. to small parts.
I am sure he did, and perhaps part of his experiment - risks taker.
I've still got over half a case of Hornadys TAP ammo. Tactical Application Police. It's a 50 grain Vmax. Powder looks like tac, XBR, Ect. I've tried to duplicate it for a whole summer, without much success. I'm close, very close. Speed wise I'm spot on. But the TAP still groups better than anything I load. If I put in the same weight powder charge they have with using the powders I have I don't get the same speed. I don't know what they are using but its great stuff.
crkckr
Well-Known Member
It is quite clear to me that the manufacturers are using powders that we reloaders simply don't have access to. I will use Underwood and Lehigh (they have essentially the same velocities for any given load) as perfect examples. I have tried very hard to get at least somewhat close to their velocities (while I do trust their ammo, I trust mine a whole lot more!) but without *any* luck at all! I can get within a couple hundred feet per second in most cases but can never match their loads. This is not true with most other factory loads, especially rifle loads. Plus, while they often use flash suppressed powder, the best we reloaders can do is (slightly) "reduced flash" (Accurate powders specifically) and even then, it is only under certain conditions and certain loads. Load up a max load of AA#9 and it flashes just as brightly as any other powder! As does any other Accurate powder.
One that surprised me was a load I developed for my 5.5" Redhawk using a 200 gr Gold Dot bullet (designed specifically for the .44 Special). Since I didn't want a firebreathing dragon of a load, I added IMR4227 until I got the bullet up to 1200 fps. The surprise was that there is no visible muzzle flash! Any max load with this powder will flash like a flash bulb! (You young guys might not even know what that is! Trust me, it's really brite!) The same powder works in the same way with .357 mag using the 135 Gold Dot (again designed for the .38 Special). No visible muzzle flash at around 1200 fps!
I have pulled several of the Underwood bullets (all Xtreme Defenders) in different calibers and while one should never, ever base a handload on what they believe the factory uses (unless the manufacturer is willing to divulge exactly what powder they are using - very unlikely!) I was not able to say that any of their powders matched any of the powders I have on hand (I just went down and did a quick count of 55 different rifle and pistol powders, not counting a couple different black powders). As in, not even something close that might be a maybe! So yeah, they are definitely holding out on us! The only powders that I have zero examples of are the VV powders, which around here (MO) run $10 or more per pound higher than the "regular" stuff!
At least in my case, they have me by the short and curlies when it comes to velocity! So I have enough to get by for at least one minor firefight and have mostly Gold Dots as back up. Except in 10mm, since Speer seems to be holding out on us with the 165 Gold Dot, the rotten scoundrels! They say they are in "full production" but I don't see *anyone* using or selling the 165! Speer doesn't even show it on their website anymore, even as loaded ammo! Beats the snot out of me!
Cheers,
crkckr
One that surprised me was a load I developed for my 5.5" Redhawk using a 200 gr Gold Dot bullet (designed specifically for the .44 Special). Since I didn't want a firebreathing dragon of a load, I added IMR4227 until I got the bullet up to 1200 fps. The surprise was that there is no visible muzzle flash! Any max load with this powder will flash like a flash bulb! (You young guys might not even know what that is! Trust me, it's really brite!) The same powder works in the same way with .357 mag using the 135 Gold Dot (again designed for the .38 Special). No visible muzzle flash at around 1200 fps!
I have pulled several of the Underwood bullets (all Xtreme Defenders) in different calibers and while one should never, ever base a handload on what they believe the factory uses (unless the manufacturer is willing to divulge exactly what powder they are using - very unlikely!) I was not able to say that any of their powders matched any of the powders I have on hand (I just went down and did a quick count of 55 different rifle and pistol powders, not counting a couple different black powders). As in, not even something close that might be a maybe! So yeah, they are definitely holding out on us! The only powders that I have zero examples of are the VV powders, which around here (MO) run $10 or more per pound higher than the "regular" stuff!
At least in my case, they have me by the short and curlies when it comes to velocity! So I have enough to get by for at least one minor firefight and have mostly Gold Dots as back up. Except in 10mm, since Speer seems to be holding out on us with the 165 Gold Dot, the rotten scoundrels! They say they are in "full production" but I don't see *anyone* using or selling the 165! Speer doesn't even show it on their website anymore, even as loaded ammo! Beats the snot out of me!
Cheers,
crkckr
One thing I was able to find out is that the TAP loads were made for one particular rifle. A Remington 700 Tactical urban sniper rifle. I just happen to own one. But it still upsets me that I was unable to duplicate it.
S
shaughn
Guest
I was privileged to get a supply of custom order ammunition some 30 years ago ,(job related) 45 acp 230 hollow point , think using Sierra tips it was doing an honest 1000 fps out of a Government model without being +P, low flash and at a high density loading, which went a long way to prevent set back during loading in some platforms, it used the SAAMI max OAL . Performed well in both pistol , carbine and smg during qualification. I have a few reloading combos that can do this but not with low flash powder, water proof sealant, mil spec primer,case and the benefit of pressure testing (piezzo or c.u.p.).
Reloaders can tweak and tune for an individual arm, but the major ammo maker has us beat collectively when it comes to mass production, they must produce a round that work in 99 percent of all existing firearms that are out there in the wild.
Reloaders can tweak and tune for an individual arm, but the major ammo maker has us beat collectively when it comes to mass production, they must produce a round that work in 99 percent of all existing firearms that are out there in the wild.
I remember hearing years ago the manufacturers used proprietary powders we couldn't get off the shelf. Growing up near the Remington ammo plant in AR, parents had friends and family members that worked there. My uncle used to give me corlock ammo, as the yellow and green box only cost him $1.
I have a cousin, whose ex-husband worked there until recently. My family still claims him, the cousin we do not. Anyways, he told me last time I saw him, that since the buyout they were using lots of Alliant powders, and even were having a hard time getting them. He even told me the company would be split in half (Vista), but I don't even think he saw a foreign entity buying them out. He told me all of this last fall when I was home caring for my mother.
I have a cousin, whose ex-husband worked there until recently. My family still claims him, the cousin we do not. Anyways, he told me last time I saw him, that since the buyout they were using lots of Alliant powders, and even were having a hard time getting them. He even told me the company would be split in half (Vista), but I don't even think he saw a foreign entity buying them out. He told me all of this last fall when I was home caring for my mother.
Yes. Many years back, we tried this with a few handgun and rifle loads, but or results were mixed at best. We had better results in some handgun loads, but eventually, we went away from the practice. Especially in rifle and with the more modern powders.
SteveBurton
Formerly 'Jackmonkey'
Ammo manufacturers do you special blends to achieve 'faster' velocities. I've poured out dozens of loaded rounds to try to identify what they have used to no avail. Usually I can get a more precise load with higher velocities than factory ammo anyway so I don't worry about it.
This is fairly common. Most ammo manufactures develop loads based on the latest lot of powder produced for certain calibers/loads, and with pressure gauges, indoor ranges, etc, etc, they create a workable load to sell to the public. These powders are usually considered non-canister grade, as they may not meet the tight specifics to be labeled as a certain powder, say like H4350, H1000 or any such.
Powder production is not an exact science, and even though the same formula may be used as a previous lot, its real characteristics are not known until it is tested. Often, it may vary slightly but enough to prevent it from being canister grade, but this new powder can be used to develop factory loads without issue.
Over the decades, I have bought hundreds of pounds of non-canister grade surplus powders that I have to develop my own load for various calibers, and while the powder is usually labeled as a "similar" burn rate to another canister grade, it is not the same. No real issue for a careful handloader.
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shaughn
Guest
I like surplus or non canister lots of powder that come out on the market, only problem is that you have to buy large amounts, had to build a government approved powder magazine ( explosives act in Canada) to store it. The development of loads, ladder testing bullet selection, range work can eat up a lot of powder and not having enough can result in the discovery of a perfect load just as you run out of powder.... been there!
Predator 22
Well-Known Member
Hornady does in fact use none canister powder. They have said so on their podcast several times.
QuietTexan
Well-Known Member
There's only so much pressure you can put into the chamber before you make a bomb, and an overbore cartridge certified at high pressure is hard to beat. 204 Ruger is already specified 2500psi higher than the parent case (222 Rem Mag) and hits 4400 FPS out of the box. Only marginal gains to be made there unless you push pressure hard.
The particular chambering you mentioned is not a hundred year old design like the 30-06 where in a modern rifle you can safely load past the 50k spec that factory ammo is limited to and see some big gains.
Same logic applies to 6.5CM vs 260 Rem - 2000psi more for the newer design so factory ammo should push slightly faster when both are limited to spec. But a handloader can push a 260 Rem faster.
Nosler got the 26 Nosler specified at 65k, not as much room to work with there. So on and so on.
