Allen magnum

[Varmint]

Well speaking of shooting stories, I have one . My frield one day in a gun store and talking to a guy about guns and the fello said to my friend ( I have a 300 win mag that will shoot 3 shot groups at 300 yds and you can cover them with a dime.) So my friend says to him I will give you a $100.00 for every one you shoot and you give me $100.00 for every one you don't shoot, and needless to say that shutt that guy up quick.I allways say (PUT OR SHUTT UP)

 

[ss7mm]

Thanks for all the great info everone. They are pretty "wow" to say the least! I am in the middle of a project right now that will get me close to the 7. This info will let me see where I am standing against some of the best out there. Also how deep in the pocket book would a person have to dig to have Kirby build one in a remington action?

harfman:

Sorry about your thread getting so hijacked.

Glad you got the information you originally asked for. I hope your current project goes well, be sure to keep us posted about it.

I sent you a PM about your question concerning build costs etc.

 

[linksmechanic]

BH: Actually the green one that looks like 3 shots is actually 4. Sorry if you think a bullet couldn't travel through the middle but it did. And the other ones are obviously more than three shots. It's funny how I stuck up for a guy I post some groups and I have some guy telling me they were 3 shots. So you haven't seen a 10 shot group that looked like one big hole? Where have you been? Kirby wasn't offended my opinions so why are you? He's a great gunsmith. I'm outta of this thread sorry for the ruffled feathers and everybody have a nice day.

 

[BountyHunter]

Links

I just said the groups was about 3 bullets wide, and not that they were only 3 shots and any number could be in between. Thought you were saying that they were the .1 groups.

Seen plenty of one round hole groups.

Not offended either.

BH

 

[linksmechanic]

I must of took it wrong sorry for the mess up. No offense taken.

 

[Fiftydriver]

This thread was not started by me, I am just a contributor to the topic.

My feelings of factory rifles and their accuracy and consistancy performance is pretty general. In generaly, they are neither of these things in a repeatable manner at least.

That said, I have witnessed sample rifles from each of the major rifle makers that if all factory rifles performed as they did, I would be out of work because they shot so well.

I still hold to the comment that I personally have NEVER seen a factory rifle, sporter, varmint or any other style that was a legit .1 rifle. Certainly not saying there are none out there because I am sure there are and we have been offered results that show this is possible but it is a rare thing.

I try to not get hung up on 100 yard paper groups to much. In fact, I often tell my customers the best way to burn out their barrel is trying to find that mythical magic combination of loading componants for a specific rifle. In most cases, this only leads to "the grass is always greener" attitude and before you know it your barrel is ready to be replaced.

For me personally and my recommendation to my customers. Look for a load that produced a low Extreme Spread which I like to see below 20 fps and if possible below 15 fps consistantly. Even more so important is a load that the rifle will put into a group that will get you what you need down range for the goals of the rifle.

I like to hold a load standard to 1/2 moa at 100 yards. If I get a load that will do that, I will get off 100 yards and jump right to 500 yards if this is a long range rifle. You learn MUCH more at 500 yards about your rifle and load then you ever will at 100 yards. In fact, I have seen many a 1/2 moa rifles at 100 yards fall apart at 500 yards group size.

On the other end of the spectrum. If your using very long, very high BC bullets driven to upper level velocities, if I see any group producing consistantly round or even triangle groups at 100 yards of 3/4 moa or smaller, I will again test them at 500 yards.

With this type of bullet, I have often found that your 100 yard MOA measurements are really not what the load will do at long range. For example. My lightweight 7mm AM was a 3/4 moa rifle at 100 yards and no better with the 200 gr ULD RBBT loaded to 3200 fps. I was not overly impressed when I started testing the rifle. Figured I went to small on barrel contour in attempts to keep rifle weight down. Still I tested at 500 yards just to see what it would do. First three shot group out of the rifle at 500 was a 2.3" ctc even triangle!!! Now this will not get anyone really excited but I was expecting at lest 4" groups. That was not the case at all. In fact when tested at 700 yards, the rifle still held 1/2 moa.

After checking this, I returned to 100 yards and shot three, three shot groups just to see what was happening at that range again. Same exact results as before, perhaps even slightly larger average then 3/4 moa.

So, my point is simply this, if your shooting a BR rifle at 100 and 200 yards, obviously tight little groups are your only goal.

If your setting up your long range rifle, find a good load that will get you at LEAST 3/4 moa and preferrably 1/2 moa groups or better but when you find a load that will do this with consistant velocities, get off the paper and get out to farther ranges to see what happens as again, you will learn MUCH more about your rifle, load and your shooting at 500 yards then you ever will at 100.

Then, after you find a good load, get off paper totally except to check zero when needed and spend your time shooting at variable range targets to practice your drop chart and doping skills. That will serve you much better then trying to discover that magical load that will get you into the .2 or .1s at 100 yards. Plus, your rifle will last you MUCH longer and will serve you many more hunting seasons that way.

Will some factory rifles do this, certainly they will, will they be consistant week after week or month after month or year after year, that is generally their weak link compared to a custom rifle.

Please also remember my comments are directed to those using chamberings that are not terribly barrel friendly but very high on performance. If your shooting a 308 Win, shoot as much as you want!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[P KUNDA]

I couldn't agree more

Peter

 

[uncleB]

Peter

Pete,
finally on your 41'st post you got one right, good job.
try for 2 or 3 more before you hit 100

 

[P KUNDA]

UncleB you'r on your 416th post and still waiting for your first.

Pete,
finally on your 41'st post you got one right, good job.
try for 2 or 3 more before you hit 100

,,,,,,,,,,,,

Peter

 

[harfman99]

Well what to say. We have realy hashed this one out have we not. Thank you all for your advise and expetice. I have learned many things from this thread. I may some day when my kids get older and out of the house give Kirby a call and see what he can do for me. As for now for i will try to get as close as possable with what i can do myself and the help of my local smith. I really believe that what Kirby has done with these rounds is something else. I also believe that there are some turely good people here and am going to really enjoy being part of this forum.

thank you all

Chris

 

[Leep]

I haven't had much correspondence with Kirby, simply because i can't afford one of his fine rifles....The correspondence i did have was very cordial and it was like talking to a good friend.
Even after he knew there was little chance I would be spending any money or sending any his way anytime soon, he was still nice enough to answer my emails and give me much needed and much appreciated information.

I also have read, with much interest, many of the posts by all of you who either desire to be able to shoot long distances accurately, either with your own creations or one Kirby designed, and have always come away with the feeling that i was watching intelligent, decent, caring people relate I'm a usually respectful manner.

Now, someone may think that I am being flattering due to some ulterior motive. Well, since almost no one knows even who the heck I am, that would seem to defray that idea...

I've learned much from my times here and any questions you may have will usually be answered by some knowledgeable person in a clear, concise manner, without any belittling.

Kirby, I believe you to be a man of honor and are probably nicer than you have to be, at times, as per the other gentleman who felt the need to insert the needle..
Do what you do sir and discerning, fair minded people will continue to view you with the same degree of respect that i have....
Pretty good commendation for a few simple e-mails you answered, huh?
Well, you, and others deserve them.
Take care all of you builders of guns and continue to share your experiences and your wealth of information to those of us less fortunate or capable....

Leep:

 

[Lightvarmint]

Lightvarmint,

There aren't very many people that have the absolute correct answers to so many different subjects as you. You are truely one of God's chosen, as is your smith that regularly puts out rifles that shoot in the 0s while you wait at the counter for him to complete your custom work. Do you have quite a few world records by now? It would be a shame to waste the potential of your rifles on varmints only, and not share the magic with the rest of the rifle world. Perhaps that's what you're doing on this forum. You must be a living legend in your own mind. I don't know what we ever did before you, or what we'll do after you... it could be hopeless.

No world records...... Getting well built guns to shoot good is not that difficult if the barrels are quality and installed correctly as well as the reloader being anally retentive on case prep and reloading techniques.... For me, it is less shooting technique and more preliminary preparation. If your gun is heavy enough, you can eliminate shooting technique for the most part. For instance, it is very easy to shoot tiny groups out of my rail gun. And, if you have not had the pleasure to play with one, you should come down and get additcted. Anyway, LR pistols are much more of a challenge than the LR rifles.

If you read my posts attentively, you will find that I said that I have all the rifles built already and really only need barrels and muzzle brakes occassionally. I actually quit competing when my shooting partner died. I just couldnot get back into it. I still have the guns and shoot them regularly and have as much fun shooting them by myself or with friends as I did traveling all over the place and shooting in matches. I may start shooting some 600 yard matches here locally though.

If you would like to come down here and have some friendly competition, we could shoot for some breakfasts, lunches or dinners.

James

 

[Lightvarmint]

James Messer. I'm sure LV will let me know if I'm wrong.

Congratulations, you are correct, James Messer is the benchrest smith that I (and a lot of others) used when competing.... But, you cannot get one made while you wait. He has a long lead time. However, if you go and help him pick some "ramps" (wild onions) in the spring, it may speed up the process a little. A really nice guy to say the least.

James

 

[Lightvarmint]

Links,

Have no idea who his smith is. I do however know who he is! Well about 95% sure who he is.

I would agree, if your building a rifle specifically for BR shooting, its not overly hard to build a rifle to shoot into the .1's.

I believe he was referring to his big game rifles however and to build a big game rifle chambered in an extreme performance big game chambering that will shoot into the .1's is much more challanging.

Now if your big game rifle is a 15 lb rifle chambered in a 6mm PPC, I conceed, there should be no reason why it will not shoot extremely well. For me, a rifle chambered in a chambering such as a 7mm AM that will hold 1/2 moa or even 3/4 moa out to 1000 yards for three shots in good conditions impresses me MUCH more then a rifle chambered for a small chambering that will shoot into the .1's at 100 yards. Just the game I prefer to play personally.

Anyway, This is the guy I think he is, he has been proven to stretch a thing or two concerning the truth to make his point seem more authoritative when it really is not. He is trying to come off as an innocent contributor to this post, that is hardly the case, and I knew it as soon as I read his first post. That is why I replied as I did. I would give one of my rifles to have the chance to witness groups fired with all his 0.1 rifles. I have locals all the time, many of whom are BR shooters that tell me they have rifles that shoot into the .1's all the time. They tell me this because they expect every rifle built for them to shoot as well as these rifles. I tell them that I offer a 1/2 moa accuracy potential and ask them to bring up their rifles and shoot them on paper at my range just because I want to see this quality of rifle. Of the couple dozen guys that have bragged about such rifles, there have only been Three of these that did not do some serious back peddling on the performance of their rifles and did not bring them out to shoot.

The three that did bring their rifles out proved what I suspected. Yes the rifles shot very well, no doubt there, but not one consistantly shot better then a 0.4" average. I will also admit that there were a couple 3 shot groups that did shoot into the 0.1's but it was not common. I often hear from customers saying they have rifles that shoot into the .1's and first thing I ask them is what type of rifle do they have. I have yet to see a legit big game rifle that would shoot "Consistantly" into the .1's.

The key word here is "Consistantly". Not once in a while or the rifle once shot a 0.1" group and from that point on its labeled as a .1" rifle.

I do not say this to detract from any other smith out there. And I am not talking about BR rifles, nor was this post started asking about BR rifles. It was started asking a specific question about information about the AMs which are solely intented to be used as big game rifle for long range big game hunting.

If LightVarmint or whatever name he is now using has rifles that "Consistantly" print into the 0.1's, I highly doubt they are what we out west would consider legit long range big game rifles which is what we were talking about before he added his opinion.

Again, if we are talking rifles built for the specific purpose of shooting very tight groups at 100 and 200 yards, sure, this level of accuracy is not suprising but again, that is not the type of rifles we were discussing in any way.

Just because you have a small caliber, low intensity chambering in a moderatly heavy rifle that you shot a deer with, does not mean its a big game rifle by design. Means you have a BR rifle that you used to shoot a deer with. When I refer to "low intensity chambering" I am not referring to the velocity or chamber pressure generated by specific chambering. I am referring to the amount of stress the chambering imposes onto the rifle system. Getting a 222 Rem to shoot VERY well is not all that hard, in fact in many cases I have seen rifles that shot into the .1s chambered in similar chamberings that that had receivers no where near what would be considered square. That WILL Not happen with a large diameter, high intensity chambering. Everything has to be perfect in the rifle to get good results.

Again, is this hard to do, nope, there are alot of good smiths out there that do it all the time. Would they do it with a customer sitting there watching, that is laughable, unless the customer has the better part of a day to put in sitting on his rear waiting!!!

I suspect LightVarmint may have nothing better to do.

Kirby Allen(50)

The calibers I use for longer range work are the 338/378, 338 Lapua Imp and 338 RUM all ORIGINALLY built by differnt artisans. I have other chamberings, but these are the ones that get the most use. These may be light by your standards, but they are fairly hefty to me. All weight between 13 and 20 lbs. They shoot well because of who made the components and who did the work, not necessarily who is the shooter. On any given Saturday or Sunday at a serious rifle match, you could shoot your rifles against all the competitors. Some you will beat, and some will beat you. Some (not necessarily me) can even beat you with your own equipment. And if people cannot understand this, they need to visit a competitive shooting environment to see for themselves. I am just lucky to have a longrange "tunnel" to shoot through that is very friendly as far as conditions are concerned and that makes it "very easy" to tune a shooting stick approaching its accuracy limits. My hope is that someone could take my stuff and perform better than I so I can go to work and ultimately get better. After all, improving skills is much easier with good equipment and when you are motivated by someone who has already done it with your equipment.

But, where this thread started was about "Allen Magnums". I merely suggested that if prices increase as the poster suggested to go somewhere else to get the equivalent chambering built for a lesser sum.

Oh, I am "Chawlston" as well. I had not used the "lightvarmint" (my original account) for a long time due to having forgotten about it and lost the password. When I got the news letter at the lightvarmint address, I decided to use it for a while. No trolling here by me, come on guys, the signature line is the same how could someone purposelfully remain or hope to purposefully remain un-noticed with the same signature line. Must be the thin Montana air. You are way too shallow for you to do work for anyone I know. Most of the gunmiths I know of are so busy doing gun work, that they have very little time to check emails much less come up with some lame theories that you have posted here.

The only trolling here is by people who have their nets out trolling for business at every opportunity to anyone who will give them an audience. You see the EXACT same thing by upstart gunsmiths trying to re-invent the wheel with their name attached to it. A good gunsmith friend of mine tells his new shooters "everyone has something to sell". He is correct.

Oh, and Kirby, you (and your witnesses) are more than welcome to come down here (with an extra rifle of course as you offer to give away and I would auction it off to benefit a local charity) and shoot at my Long Range facility (978yards with a very stable bench) on 5000 +or- acres of private land to test your theory. My guns (all with McMillan McHale style stocks) are tuned in the BEST conditions in the .1s and .0xx range level (limits on my ability) and I will gladly take you up on your offer. I would come to Montana but I am sure (COULD BE WRONG) that for a pure accuracy contest to prove/disprove your theory and assertions, that my facility is more condusive to extreme accuracy and has fewer distractions than yours. My shooting sticks (nor anyone elses) will not shoot their best in poor conditions or when the pilot doesn't drive them correctly, but they are very close to their limits in the accuracy department at hunting velocities on days with good conditions for tuning. We can shoot at night or in the daytime or combinations of whatever you prefer. This is your chance to get out from behind the keyboard and teach us something. So, it is time to put up or, well you know.........

Almost forgot...... Bring your aluminum tipped wildcat bullets. I may even have some USA models (not made by me) to shoot side-by-side with your wildcats by the early summer. No guaruntees as it all depends on when the final configuration of the Corbin die gets done. Anyway, I am sincerely looking forward to watch your technique in action with your equipment.

James