A must have for every reloader

[Lonewolf74]

Not wanting to start an argument hear just healthy debate. I think you guy's are a little off in saying you need a fire formed case for base to ogive measurement. I could be wrong but base to ogive should remain the same regardless of head space because your essentially measuring the distance from your bolt face to where the bullet touches the lands. So regardless of where the shoulder is the overall length (base to ogive) will remain the same. What would change is the depth of the bullet if you where to measure from case neck to ogive.

I use both methods to double check things and I find the Hornady modified case set up to be more consistent and I believe this is because with the fire formed case that I modify by slitting the neck jams the bullet and it gets pulled out some on extraction.

 

[Barrelnut]

OK here's the issue with the Hornady case. It does not measure from the bolt face to the lands. It only measures from the shoulder to the lands. Think about it, you push the hornady case in until it stops. What causes it to stop? The shoulder of the case hits the shoulder of the chamber. You then push the pullet out until it hits the lands. The Hornady case is shorter than the chamber because it is an unfired case. It's kinda hard to visualize, but it is true.

When I do the Wheeler method, I don't cut the neck so the bullet will slide in and out. I seat a dummy round long so that the bullet will hit the lands before the bolt will close. Then I continue seating it deeper and deeper, with the seater die, until the bolt just closes with no resistance. You can get very precise this way. Then when your done you have a very exact dummy round.

 

[cdherman]

OK here's the issue with the Hornady case. It does not measure from the bolt face to the lands. It only measures from the shoulder to the lands. Think about it, you push the hornady case in until it stops. What causes it to stop? The shoulder of the case hits the shoulder of the chamber. You then push the pullet out until it hits the lands. The Hornady case is shorter than the chamber because it is an unfired case. It's kinda hard to visualize, but it is true.

When I do the Wheeler method, I don't cut the neck so the bullet will slide in and out. I seat a dummy round long so that the bullet will hit the lands before the bolt will close. Then I continue seating it deeper and deeper, with the seater die, until the bolt just closes with no resistance. You can get very precise this way. Then when your done you have a very exact dummy round.

^^ What he said is what I am saying too ^^

Barrelnut, do you remove the extractor when you are doing this?

When I used to use the slit case method, I was worried two issues, one being the obvious that the bullet is not well jammed onto the lands and/or would pull out upon extraction. Then I had to always try to create approximations using cleaning rods from the muzzle. Messy, inaccurate, as you have noted.

The other concern was that some of my guns have a bit of tolerance between the extractor claw and the bolt face. The ejector will then push the case forward until its seated against the shoulder, causing causing the bolt to start to close a little hard a few thousands early. At least in theory. But number one issue was the main problem.

But I will say -- your "Wheeler" method makes sense. Should work well, especially with a gun that is brand new and where one has no twice fired cases (for the new reader, do NOT assume that a once fired case has been fully stretched to reflect the complete headspace (bolt face to shoulder) of a given gun -- it takes a couple firings sometimes) The "Wheeler" approach should work really in conjunction with a Hornady BTO tool to get "close" and then a nice micrometer seating die to finish...... You would not need a fired cartridge -- Just grab any old heavy or light reject and use for your dummy......

 

[Barrelnut]

Barrelnut, do you remove the extractor when you are doing this?

No, I just remove the ejector. But I do this on Savages, the extractor is weak enough that the case head just slips past it with on issue.

 

[SidecarFlip]

I just wanted to make those who are not aware of this tool, aware of it. It is a must have tool for setting up your full length size die. Without a way to take a measurement from the case head to the datum point on the shoulder your just guessing at how much your pushing the shoulder back. That can lead to all kinds of issues. Use one of these tools on you caliper to take before and after measurements of sized cases. Setup your die to push the shoulder back .002-.003" and life will be good.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...headspace-gauge-5-bushing-set-with-comparator

I machine my own. Very easy. I machine and ream and harden my own die bushings as well. 3 foot piece of oil hard drill rod makes many bushings. Same applies to aluminum round stock for datum gauges.

My opinion is, don't tell people to bump a shoulder 0.002 or 0.003 because it may take only 0.001 to impact bolt lift an case head wipe.

 

[Barrelnut]

I machine my own. Very easy. I machine and ream and harden my own die bushings as well. 3 foot piece of oil hard drill rod makes many bushings. Same applies to aluminum round stock for datum gauges.

My opinion is, don't tell people to bump a shoulder 0.002 or 0.003 because it may take only 0.001 to impact bolt lift an case head wipe.

Flip!
Must be darn cold and you can't get out! Good to hear you on the board again!

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I machine my own. Very easy. I machine and ream and harden my own die bushings as well. 3 foot piece of oil hard drill rod makes many bushings. Same applies to aluminum round stock for datum gauges.

My opinion is, don't tell people to bump a shoulder 0.002 or 0.003 because it may take only 0.001 to impact bolt lift an case head wipe.

Obviously this post was not meant for you if your machining your own. Not sure what you mean by the last part of your post but theres nothing wrong with a little more bump. Just about any comment I make is backed by real world accuracy testing, most at 1k. I try to not post theories or personal ideas. When it comes to clearance in the chamber most of the time a little more room will shoot better. Most times the shoulder angle of the chamber, die, and measuring device dont match exactly anyhow so the actual number of bump is not important. I usually go by a zero clearance feel on the bolt plus .002" more.

 

[milanuk]

Barrelnut, do you remove the extractor when you are doing this?

No, I just remove the ejector. But I do this on Savages, the extractor is weak enough that the case head just slips past it with on issue.

I think a better method is to pull the bolt all the way out, hook the case rim under the extractor, then gently insert it back into the receiver so as to avoid having the extractor mask the feel of the bullet in the lands. See Alex's video on finding your seating depth at the 3:00 minute mark for an example. When you're initially trying to 'rough it in', it doesn't matter as much. When you're down to that last thou or so... it does (to me).

 

[Lonewolf74]

Barrelnut you are right in the Hornady case I didn't even think about that till you said it and now it very obvious.

Makes me wonder how I come up with the same measurement between the 2 methods. When I get some free time I'm gonna measure things again just to see what I come up with. At any rate I've found seating depths that shoot darn good out of my rifles.

 

[Deleted member 46119]

The elusive measurement is the BOLT FACE to LANDS.

Yes.

I invested in a tap and now make my own from well fire formed cases. One for each rifle.

Fire forming with a book length and load.

 

[Rich Coyle]

Fire forming with a book length and load.

What is "Fire forming with a book length"?

 

[Sweetyzfd]

Good tip. Those definitely help for shoulder bump.

 

[Clucknmoan]

What is "Fire forming with a book length"?

Fire forming with SAAMI spec length for the cartridge.

 

[Clucknmoan]

I used the Hornady OAL gauge for awhile and couldn't get really consistent results with it. Started using this method instead, very simple and you do not need modified cases. I got way more consistent results doing it this way.



Then I saw Alex Wheelers method and it's better for me yet. I get the same exact results repeatedly. So now I use both of these methods. I do the initial test with the collets and the rod to get close, then Wheelers method to get exact. I find that I'm always actually jammed about 5 thou when comparing these other methods to Wheelers. I suppose it's because you are forcing the bullet past touch when inserting it, no matter how careful you try to be.