Re: 50 BMG as a copper remover.....
I'm back from my moose hunt. I'm happy to report that a moose died on the third day. One shot, one moose and from a 270 Winchester shooting a 130 grain bullet. Heresy I know, but the moose is dead nevertheless skinned and hanging in my machine shop aging. Tenderloins are in the fridge marinating as I write this. Great supper coming up tonight! Life is good.
A lot of information and more than a few challengeable statements posted above, especially by B1G BORE.
B1G BORE has been liberal spreading his qualifications around, qualifications that remain theoretical. He seems to have a boner for a product he's never used. I purchased the products in question and tested them, even and unto putting them down bores that I own. Theoretical repudiation of any test is theory, not proof. So far B1G BORE has been all theory and no proof. He claims logic for his side, but it's illogical to push an untested theory as proof that a test with demonstrable results is invalid. If I read all of B1G BORE'S objections to Warthog accurately, they stack up something like this: In order to work, bore cleaners need an oxidizer, something a submersion test doesn't supply. Warthog contains an oxidizer, therefore, he isn't going to use it.
And then, to make his theoretical arguments worse, he violates the rules by proposing to put Warthog down the barrel for 24 hours violating the use instructions that come with the product. And to get out of doing actual tests, he states bore cleaners are too expensive to Baume test. I've been up front: Warthog is ammonia based. No need to Baume test it. The rest, that little extra that makes it work and work well, is a trade secret.
For all the noise about logic, B1G BORE arrives at a very illogical conclusion: Don't use Warthog because it will do exactly what I say it will do. But then, he can't prove any of what he's saying because he hasn't used or tested Warthog. How to test Warthog and other bore cleaners seems to be beyond us mere mortals stuck down here on a level where we actually put bore cleaners inside bores to see what happens. The score so far: B1G BORE has a theory while I have a product that if used as instructed, does exactly what I say it will do, and that is, clean copper fouling out of a bore faster than and as safe as, any product on the market.
Unlike B1G BORE, I used my rifles as guinea pigs, including my pet, a Model 70 stainless with a very expensive barrel with cut rifling. No damage to any of them and I've cleaned them with the Warthog prototype for a long time. Before I used what eventually became Warthog 1134 on my rifle bores, I obtained some 4140 barrel steel and some stainless steel the number of which escapes me at the moment. I got the number off a custom barrel maker's web site. I also used a piece of a stainless barrel I cut off a Winchester barrel that I shortened. I tested the Warthog prototype on these steels. I put it on and left it on and checked it every hour on the hour. That's how I arrived at the use instructions. WARTHOG 1134 IS SAFE, IF YOU FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS. If you don't, you are on your own. No manufacturer of any product that I know of will warranty any product against abuse. Neither do we. That would be stupid. I'm not stupid and my partners aren't stupid.
A bore cleaner, including Warthog, isn't much different than medical care. You go to a doctor with a life threatening condition. The doctor prescribes a drug and a regiment for taking that drug. He instructs you to take 1 pill in the morning, 1 pill at noon, and 1 pill at night for three weeks. You decided to speed up the process. Hell, what does the doctor know? You ignore the doctor's instructions. You take 3 pills in the morning, 3 pills at noon, and 3 pills at night for a week instead of the 3 week regiment. Your condition worsens, and now, in addition to the original illness, you've created a new problem, possibly a fatal problem. How many guys here, other than lawyers using twisted logic, would hold the doctor responsible for the idiocy of not following the instructions on the bottle? It's the same with using Warthog, or any of the cleaners on the market, for that matter. You have to follow the instructions! Remove Warthog completely when the bore is clean. If there is any residue left, you didn't remove everything from the bore. If there is any residue in the muzzle brake, remove it. I learned that lesson the first time I stood inspection with my M-14 and my DI found residue in the flash suppressor.
I will address B1G BORE'S idea of putting Warthog down the barrel for 24 hours as part of routine cleaning regiment. Only with oral and written permission from me personally. Let's say you find a rifle at a rummage sale. The bore shows 50 years of neglect. The bore may be beyond salvage. You don't know because you can't get past the crud to see if there is actually a bore present under the crud. You clean but nothing on the shelf gets the crud out. Contact me. I'll work with you to solve the problem, if it's possible to solve. Warthog won't miraculously cure a bore that's beyond salvage, but it will clean years worth of crud out of a usable bore. If you put Warthog down the bore for 24 hours as part of a routine cleaning regiment, well, it's your bore, you can use it or abuse it any way you choose. Just don't expect me to stand responsible for any damage you cause by misusing our product. FOLLOW THE INSTUCTIONS and your bore will be safe. B1G BORE is correct. Oxidizers don't care what they oxidize. He wrote out a formula that is beyond question. What the formula doesn't make clear is the element of time. Call it rust, oxidation, or corrosion; it takes time. That time element is what makes a bore cleaner safe.
Those guys that claim they can put _______ (Fill in the blank) down their bore for days and even weeks without damage; if _______ (Fill in the blank) won't damage your bore in that amount of time, it won't take out copper fouling.
Somebody mentioned above that a shiny new bullet would react different to a bore cleaner than the copper from that same bullet left behind in a bore. We roughed up copper and placed it in Warthog. Warthog worked even faster on the rough surface. If you believe the theory that a new bullet is an invalid test object, then by logical extension, you have to believe that firing that same bullet down a bore somehow changes it into a material that is immune to a formula that will dissolve it before firing that same bullet.
I'll defend the safely of Warthog and every cleaner on the market. BUT YOU HAVE THE FOLLOW THE DAMNED INSTUCTIONS. Our product is as safe as you make it, just like your rifle is as safe as you make it. Misuse and abuse either, and only a shyster lawyer will sympathize with you.
B1G BORE insinuated above that I have a financial interest in Warthog. I unequivocally and without hesitation categorically state, that I do. My partners and I aren't running a charity. My financial interest doesn't change or cloud the tests I ran. Anybody can run the tests to prove me right or wrong. I developed Warthog for personal use because I hate cleaning bores. It worked so well that my partner and I decided to market it. It's the only product we have available, and with the exception of trying to develop jags that will stand up to Warthog, will probably remain our only product.
Jeffbird ran a test on Warthog and several other solvents and posted the results on a site linked above. I don't know Jeff other than as a customer. We talked by phone after he ran the tests. I didn't know about the test until he told me that he ran the test. I had nothing to do with his test. I'm not surprised at the results. Had I known about the test, I would have predicted the outcome.
Feedback is starting to trickle back from users. So far it's positive. Warthog is working as advertised.
Somebody asked in a post if I objected to a group of guys passing a bottle of Warthog around as a floating test. Have at it. The more the merrier. I believe as word gets around, Warthog will become the copper solvent to beat. But be aware, we are a small company with limited production capacity, and therefore, limited product available. We made up our minds that we are going to stay small because we don't want the business to interfere with our hunting and fishing. We're being up front about that. The hunting season means we will not be here to fill orders or answer questions. But since hunting seasons run at the same time around the country, you ought to be out fouling bores, not worrying about cleaning them. (We are training our wives to ship. I ran my wife through the paces while gone on my moose hunt. She did just fine.)
One last thought: Wipeout is supposed to be the hottest cleaner since Christ cleaned the Temple. I forgot to clean my grandson's 280 Remington last year. I thought it was clean when I put it away last year. When I took it out a few days ago, it had green streaks. I decided to use Wipeout. I followed the instructions. It worked as advertised. One dirty patch, and then a clean patch. Just for the hell of it, I ran a patch with 8 drops of Warthog down the barrel. Six strokes up and six strokes down and the patch came out as green as a Christmas tree. That is a simple test anybody can do.
I think what's passing for clean is really not so clean. Why? Mass production of a potentially toxic substance has frightened a lot of manufacturers away. Blame liability lawyers. It's a fact that Hoppes dumbed down their product because of just such concerns. I think we're selling to people that are smart enough to use an effective product without hurting themselves just like they use firearms safely, and just like they use knives to clean what they bag, and just like they use a vehicle to get them to their shooting and hunting and to safely get them back. If you are on the road to hunting or shooting, just FOLLOW the instructions. They post them all up and down the road.
I'm back from my moose hunt. I'm happy to report that a moose died on the third day. One shot, one moose and from a 270 Winchester shooting a 130 grain bullet. Heresy I know, but the moose is dead nevertheless skinned and hanging in my machine shop aging. Tenderloins are in the fridge marinating as I write this. Great supper coming up tonight! Life is good.
A lot of information and more than a few challengeable statements posted above, especially by B1G BORE.
B1G BORE has been liberal spreading his qualifications around, qualifications that remain theoretical. He seems to have a boner for a product he's never used. I purchased the products in question and tested them, even and unto putting them down bores that I own. Theoretical repudiation of any test is theory, not proof. So far B1G BORE has been all theory and no proof. He claims logic for his side, but it's illogical to push an untested theory as proof that a test with demonstrable results is invalid. If I read all of B1G BORE'S objections to Warthog accurately, they stack up something like this: In order to work, bore cleaners need an oxidizer, something a submersion test doesn't supply. Warthog contains an oxidizer, therefore, he isn't going to use it.
And then, to make his theoretical arguments worse, he violates the rules by proposing to put Warthog down the barrel for 24 hours violating the use instructions that come with the product. And to get out of doing actual tests, he states bore cleaners are too expensive to Baume test. I've been up front: Warthog is ammonia based. No need to Baume test it. The rest, that little extra that makes it work and work well, is a trade secret.
For all the noise about logic, B1G BORE arrives at a very illogical conclusion: Don't use Warthog because it will do exactly what I say it will do. But then, he can't prove any of what he's saying because he hasn't used or tested Warthog. How to test Warthog and other bore cleaners seems to be beyond us mere mortals stuck down here on a level where we actually put bore cleaners inside bores to see what happens. The score so far: B1G BORE has a theory while I have a product that if used as instructed, does exactly what I say it will do, and that is, clean copper fouling out of a bore faster than and as safe as, any product on the market.
Unlike B1G BORE, I used my rifles as guinea pigs, including my pet, a Model 70 stainless with a very expensive barrel with cut rifling. No damage to any of them and I've cleaned them with the Warthog prototype for a long time. Before I used what eventually became Warthog 1134 on my rifle bores, I obtained some 4140 barrel steel and some stainless steel the number of which escapes me at the moment. I got the number off a custom barrel maker's web site. I also used a piece of a stainless barrel I cut off a Winchester barrel that I shortened. I tested the Warthog prototype on these steels. I put it on and left it on and checked it every hour on the hour. That's how I arrived at the use instructions. WARTHOG 1134 IS SAFE, IF YOU FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS. If you don't, you are on your own. No manufacturer of any product that I know of will warranty any product against abuse. Neither do we. That would be stupid. I'm not stupid and my partners aren't stupid.
A bore cleaner, including Warthog, isn't much different than medical care. You go to a doctor with a life threatening condition. The doctor prescribes a drug and a regiment for taking that drug. He instructs you to take 1 pill in the morning, 1 pill at noon, and 1 pill at night for three weeks. You decided to speed up the process. Hell, what does the doctor know? You ignore the doctor's instructions. You take 3 pills in the morning, 3 pills at noon, and 3 pills at night for a week instead of the 3 week regiment. Your condition worsens, and now, in addition to the original illness, you've created a new problem, possibly a fatal problem. How many guys here, other than lawyers using twisted logic, would hold the doctor responsible for the idiocy of not following the instructions on the bottle? It's the same with using Warthog, or any of the cleaners on the market, for that matter. You have to follow the instructions! Remove Warthog completely when the bore is clean. If there is any residue left, you didn't remove everything from the bore. If there is any residue in the muzzle brake, remove it. I learned that lesson the first time I stood inspection with my M-14 and my DI found residue in the flash suppressor.
I will address B1G BORE'S idea of putting Warthog down the barrel for 24 hours as part of routine cleaning regiment. Only with oral and written permission from me personally. Let's say you find a rifle at a rummage sale. The bore shows 50 years of neglect. The bore may be beyond salvage. You don't know because you can't get past the crud to see if there is actually a bore present under the crud. You clean but nothing on the shelf gets the crud out. Contact me. I'll work with you to solve the problem, if it's possible to solve. Warthog won't miraculously cure a bore that's beyond salvage, but it will clean years worth of crud out of a usable bore. If you put Warthog down the bore for 24 hours as part of a routine cleaning regiment, well, it's your bore, you can use it or abuse it any way you choose. Just don't expect me to stand responsible for any damage you cause by misusing our product. FOLLOW THE INSTUCTIONS and your bore will be safe. B1G BORE is correct. Oxidizers don't care what they oxidize. He wrote out a formula that is beyond question. What the formula doesn't make clear is the element of time. Call it rust, oxidation, or corrosion; it takes time. That time element is what makes a bore cleaner safe.
Those guys that claim they can put _______ (Fill in the blank) down their bore for days and even weeks without damage; if _______ (Fill in the blank) won't damage your bore in that amount of time, it won't take out copper fouling.
Somebody mentioned above that a shiny new bullet would react different to a bore cleaner than the copper from that same bullet left behind in a bore. We roughed up copper and placed it in Warthog. Warthog worked even faster on the rough surface. If you believe the theory that a new bullet is an invalid test object, then by logical extension, you have to believe that firing that same bullet down a bore somehow changes it into a material that is immune to a formula that will dissolve it before firing that same bullet.
I'll defend the safely of Warthog and every cleaner on the market. BUT YOU HAVE THE FOLLOW THE DAMNED INSTUCTIONS. Our product is as safe as you make it, just like your rifle is as safe as you make it. Misuse and abuse either, and only a shyster lawyer will sympathize with you.
B1G BORE insinuated above that I have a financial interest in Warthog. I unequivocally and without hesitation categorically state, that I do. My partners and I aren't running a charity. My financial interest doesn't change or cloud the tests I ran. Anybody can run the tests to prove me right or wrong. I developed Warthog for personal use because I hate cleaning bores. It worked so well that my partner and I decided to market it. It's the only product we have available, and with the exception of trying to develop jags that will stand up to Warthog, will probably remain our only product.
Jeffbird ran a test on Warthog and several other solvents and posted the results on a site linked above. I don't know Jeff other than as a customer. We talked by phone after he ran the tests. I didn't know about the test until he told me that he ran the test. I had nothing to do with his test. I'm not surprised at the results. Had I known about the test, I would have predicted the outcome.
Feedback is starting to trickle back from users. So far it's positive. Warthog is working as advertised.
Somebody asked in a post if I objected to a group of guys passing a bottle of Warthog around as a floating test. Have at it. The more the merrier. I believe as word gets around, Warthog will become the copper solvent to beat. But be aware, we are a small company with limited production capacity, and therefore, limited product available. We made up our minds that we are going to stay small because we don't want the business to interfere with our hunting and fishing. We're being up front about that. The hunting season means we will not be here to fill orders or answer questions. But since hunting seasons run at the same time around the country, you ought to be out fouling bores, not worrying about cleaning them. (We are training our wives to ship. I ran my wife through the paces while gone on my moose hunt. She did just fine.)
One last thought: Wipeout is supposed to be the hottest cleaner since Christ cleaned the Temple. I forgot to clean my grandson's 280 Remington last year. I thought it was clean when I put it away last year. When I took it out a few days ago, it had green streaks. I decided to use Wipeout. I followed the instructions. It worked as advertised. One dirty patch, and then a clean patch. Just for the hell of it, I ran a patch with 8 drops of Warthog down the barrel. Six strokes up and six strokes down and the patch came out as green as a Christmas tree. That is a simple test anybody can do.
I think what's passing for clean is really not so clean. Why? Mass production of a potentially toxic substance has frightened a lot of manufacturers away. Blame liability lawyers. It's a fact that Hoppes dumbed down their product because of just such concerns. I think we're selling to people that are smart enough to use an effective product without hurting themselves just like they use firearms safely, and just like they use knives to clean what they bag, and just like they use a vehicle to get them to their shooting and hunting and to safely get them back. If you are on the road to hunting or shooting, just FOLLOW the instructions. They post them all up and down the road.
