7mm Allen Mag test rifle finished.....

[lerch]

Fifty, the BC of those a-max 162gr bullets is .625 so wouldn't they be a heck of a chuck bullet since they are so light jacketed. Or would these possibly blow apart in your fast twist barrel. I saw where you were using the 160 accubond but I didn't know if you thought the a-max might work. Bad thing is that it wouldn't be any good for big game hunting since all you northern boys game animals grow so much bigger /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Show us some pics of that gun if you get bored.

Take it Easy
Steve

 

[Fiftydriver]

Eaglet,

The computer models are listing a BC in the HIGH .900 range for the 200 gr ULD RBBT. I am not sure what they will get when they actually get in the air. If I had to guess, they will be in the .9 range or at least high .8 range. Anyway you look at it, there will be nothing out there that will match them ballistically except the match grade 50 BMG bullets and then we will have a solid 400 fps velocity advantage. Even if the 50s have a BC of 1.05, it will take alot of range before they will catch up to a .900 BC bullet with a +400 fps headstart!!!

I predict they will not do it over their effective range.

Found out that barrel is a 1-10 twist which only means that one would be limited to 175 gr bullets and lighter. For a light packing extreme performance big game rifle this would not be a big deal as a 160 to 175 gr premium bullet will really do anything needed.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen (50)

 

[Fiftydriver]

Lerch,

Yes the 162 A-Max may be a good option for chucks. I would say that it would need to be limited to a 1-9 or 1-10 twist though at these velocities. I have not had great results driving the A-Max bullets much over 3400 fps but will admit I have not tried this bullet at these velocities.

With the Wildcat 169.5 gr ULD RBBT though, I feel I would rather use this bullet as it will work great on chucks and game up to heavy deer.

Got Bills receiver accurized this morning. Yours is next after lunch! Hopefully I will get Bills barrel fitted early next week and then you know what that means!!!

IF your barrel gets here, which it should any day I am guessing, I will hopefully fit yours at the same time and possibly be able to ship both rifles back to you together. We will see. That is my current plan but that always seems to change.

I am sure everyone is getting sick of my reporting on my own rifle. You can only listen to someone talk about their own creation for so long. I appreciate the attention I have been give but really need to get these rifles in the hands of customers so that they can give us some third party reviews. Look forward to seeing what you two can do with these. I suspect it will be very exciting!!!

Later,

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[lerch]

Oh good Lord Kirby,

I had to give BJ 3 valium and tie him to his chair just to get him to calm down after he read that about his rifle. I am going nuts also. Man o Man I cannot wait to shoot that bad boy. I guess I don't really have anything important to say, just rally excited. That is what I thought about the a-max's, they work great for us in the 243 at 3100fps but I have heard about people dusting them in other guns at faster speeds. They sure do blow up nice though /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thanks
Steve

 

[Eaglet]

Fiftydriver,
Wouldn't this be way beyond expected?
I was playing with Ballistic Explorer and some "if's" and it got to where I was not sure I was using the program right! If the 200 grainer with BC of 0.900 coming out at 3200 f/s can be shot accurately, the results would be amazing. First at <font color="red"> 2500 yards </font> , yes that's not a mistake, at 2500 yards the bullet at sea level would have a velocity of 1155 ft/sec which is still supersonic since speed of sound at sea level is around 1116.4 f/s... If that's not impressive then I'm messed up! Also, It would have 1500 ft-lb of energy at 1414 yards ; <font color="blue">My 300 RUM using 200 grains Accubond at 3230 f/s produces 1500 ft-lb at 940 yards... that's impresive... not to mention 1500 ft-lb at 1414 yards </font>
Some place I think I read goodgrouper saying you need 800 ft-lb to break the shoulders of a cow elk, and about 900 ft-lb to break the shoulders of an bull elk on a well placed shot. If we use this figures from a trustable source, remember these are minimuns, then this 7MM Allen Mag would be having what it takes to break the shoulders of a bull Elk out to 1960 yards. In any event, this 7MM AM with these 200 grains custom bullets would be an Elk shoulder buster at 1760 yards away, that is <font color="red"> 1 mile away </font>. NOW, THAT'S IMPRESSIVE... I believe this will be very possible with the 26.5" barrel... We'll see. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Fifty driver, do you think I'm begining to sound like a sales person? I'm bad at selling things. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Good Luck!

 

[Fiftydriver]

Eaglet,

All the numbers you list are right on the money with the research Richard and myself did before designing the 7mm Allen Mag. First off, we wanted to extend the super sonic range of our 7mm round to the +2300 yard limit which is where the smaller Allen Mags drop out of super sonic velocity at our altitude or around that mark. Just wanting to push the envelope a bit farther out.

We also wanted the very high retained velocity and energy at these extreme ranges. The reason, because if we are getting these numbers at 1500 to 1800 yards, imagine what we will have at 800 to 1000 yards!!!

Remember one thing, If you are intentionally looking to break the shoulder on an elk, especially a mature bull elk, bullet integrity has as much to do with this as retained energy.

The 200 gr ULD RBBT is built off a tapered jacket which would be totally adiquate for hammering any bull elk but I would not say it is stout enough to target onside shoulders intentionally. It should perform great with its very high sectional density but until the bullet is tested on game in the field I would have to recommend targeting the offside shoulder for the break instead of the onside.

This way, if the bullet failed to fully penetrate the shoulder, its important work would still be done through the vitals.

That said, for extreme range shooting, 800 yards and beyond, the velocity will be in a range where this bullet may full well punch though both shoulders....

Just need to get some bullets in animals and see how they perform.

The great thing is that if needed, Richard can build the heacy Bonded Core Flat base bullets which will give up a bit in BC but not much and there will be no doubt about on game performance.

I don;t think I would want to use his very heavy 0.030" jackets. I talked with him the other day about a heavy jacketed 257 bullet for long range elk hunting and he did not think the expansion would be there at extreme range and he is correct.

Personally I would like to see a ULD FB built on this same tapered jacket in something like a 210 ro 215 gr weight with a bonded core. Should expand fully yet offer a bit more integrity for hard impacts like shoulders.

First thing first, get the 200 gr ULD RBBT in the air and then we can add more bullet options when the 7mm Allen Mag is fully functional!!

I may have to start slipping you some green for your advertising work /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif!!

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Eaglet]

Alright, Fiftrydriver, I'm going to stop dreaming and let you do your testing. Truly, I was once a pro-photographer, the quality of my work was highly acclaimed but being the worst salesman there is, I had to find another trade. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif Good thing about this 7MM AM is that it'll auto sell itself. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ...I did it again! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Richard does not have a website, does he? How expensive would those 200gr ULD RBBT bullets be? If I may ask.
Have a great day!

 

[Fiftydriver]

Eaglet,

I have not got a final price on the 200 gr bullets yet but I would guess them to be in the low $40 range for 100 bullets in Canadian funds. Not sure though really. Will find out from Richard and let you know.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[davewilson]

50, i understand the 7AM is at it's best with the 200 grainers but it brings 3 questions to mind.some fokes are just gonna have to throw some of those 140 or even some 120 gr bullets out of this thing.with a 7 twist barrel do you think any of these match or varmint type bullets will hold up? secondly, what length bullet are you gonna throat this thing for? i'm thinkin the difference between a 160 accubond and a 200uld rbbt would be enough to cause a jump of one or a loss of powder capacity for the other.are you going for the middle ground or setting it up for the big fellows as far as throat length is concerned? and third, has anyone actually shot these 200 gr 7mm bullets and tested them for accuracy?

 

[Fiftydriver]

Dave,

The 1-7 will destroy a conventional cup jacketed 120-140 gr 7mm bullet at the velocitied the 7mm Allen Mag will drive them. That said, a Ballistic Tip will handle this stress fine with their very thick(by comparision) base and body wall thickness.

The 140 gr Accubond will also perform extremely well as will any partition style or bonded core bullet. The X Bullets will also handle this strain with the TSX being the best option on paper.

Still, I need to stress what this round is, simply put a HUGE 7mm magnum round. As such, if you are experimenting with alot of light bullets you will probably get more headaches then rewards. IF someone whats to use a 120 to 140 gr bullet as their main bullet choice, have a 7mm Rem Mag or 7mm STW built for these bullet weights respectively.

You would be very suprised to see how similiar the body length of the 160 gr Accubond and the 200 gr ULD RBBT is in comparision to each other. Most of the added weight in the 200 gr pill is in the nose of the bullet with the body length not being dramatically longer.

In fact from my measurements it .640" for the 160 gr Accubond compared to .700" for the 200 gr ULD.

Now if someone wanted to be able to use both bullets I would simply throat for the 160 gr Accubond and seating the 200gr ULD 0.060" deeper will not make any difference in a case this size.

Its just not the difference you would think there would be. Richard has done a very good job designing these and all the other HEAVY bullets used in the Allen Mags. As such, they do not have a dramatically longer baring surface then more traditional weight bullets. A bit longer but not what one would expect.

Now if someone wanted to shoot everything from 120 to 200 gr there would certainly be a compromise in the throat length. But for the customers that will want the 7mm Allen Mag, loading a 120 gr bullet or even a 140 gr bullet would be silly when there are bullets like the 175 and 200 gr ULD RBBTs available.

I tend to not set a rifle up for the middle of the road. Most have a rather tight bullet weight range they want to use which is a result of the ranges they will be shooting. I find this out before we build the rifle and design the rifle to the specs that will serve their needs best.

SSCOYOTE has some of the 200 gr ULD RBBT to test in his 7mm-270 WSM handgun that we are waiting for results on. Both Richard and myself are very curious to see how this round will perform with these bullets at the limited velocity potential of the handgun.

This handgun has a 1-7 twist Pac-Nor so we will see how it performs. Other then this we have not tested the 200 gr ULDs for accuracy yet. Waiting on the 1-7 twist Lilja barrels.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[ricka0]

Kirby,
If you want a good slow burning powder you might want to try HODGDON H50BMG. Lots of folks get good results with it in non BMG cartridges. That's the first powder I'll probably try when I get my own 7mm Allen SuperMag /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Ya, quit calling them Mags. They are faster than Ultra Mags. So what adjective denotes greater than Ultra? Super Ultra? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif My new 7mm Allen Super Ultra Mag /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif That sounds pretty good.

 

[davewilson]

50, that's good information.i guess i'm guilty of thinking the 200's would be considerably longer,which led to the last question.of course this new info has led me to another question.is a 7 twist barrel really necessary? i know of people that have shot 2 different manufacturers 180 gr 7mm bullets with good results in a 9 twist.these are match bullets with the cavity in the front,keeping the center of gravity towards the rear,which tends to help the accuracy.if the 200's are barely longer than a 160 accubond,which i understand can be stabilized with a 10 twist,and 180's of match design, which are probably ? longer than the 200's,are stable with a 9,is a 7.5 twist really necessary? i understand there are a lot of variables to this, but these bullets sound much more like a conventional exposed lead, jacketed hunting bullet,as far as twist that is needed,than a plastic tip or hollow cavity match bullet.

 

[ss7mm]

Here's a picture of the 200 grain Wildcat and the 160 grain Accubond for a visual comparison.

 

[7Rumloader]

b1g b0re the H-50 BMG powder works great in my RUM but heats the barrel very fast! The wc872 Kirby is using burns slower than the H-50 BMG and cooler from his testing and mine.