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6.5 Mystic Rifle for 1000mBR/ F class Competitions
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Mysticplayer
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SUCCESS!!!!!
Went out to test at 300m (actually 345yds), Unfortunately, more nasty gusty crosswinds. Guesstimate at or over 15MPH due to the clouds of dust being blown up every now and then.
However, over the chrony I got some awesome news. The velocity is up where I hoped the design should be.
47.5gr H4831SC lit by a CCI BR2 w/ 139gr Lapua - 5 shot average 2900fps.
48.0gr H4831SC lit by Fed 210M w/ 139gr Lapua - 5 shot average 2950fps.
Both of these loads have shot bugholes at 200yds in dead calm condition.
This matches 6.5-284 performance with less powder and a more 'effecient' case design. 100% load density too. Maybe the Gaillard barrel has broken in enough to let things speed up a smidge.
Groups on paper weren't as amazing with 5 shot groups 2 to 2 1/2". Clusters of 3rds 1" or so and the others blown around.
I certainly cannot complain given the wind and mirage. At least, this gives me the confidence to know that it will still shoot possibles in nasty conditions if I can just dope it.
All of the basic design parameters have now been met and the only thing left to do is learn how to shoot it and go have some fun.
First 300m match end of Sept....
The big reason for using the 308 case was that it is far more accessible to me in Canada. Lapua brass is not easy to find and horridly expensive (even more then what you guys pay) if you can find it.
In Canada, we are limited to what we can shoot due to delays and import restrictions. The 308 is simply the safest and easiest case to find in bulk.
Also, no bolt face work (what little there might be) and the design will fit in most any short action and perform to these levels. Will run from the mags which the Swede might be a bit long for.
So the design can also serve me if I decide to shoot in any tactical matches that require a repeater. Of course, hunting would be suitable out to 700yds+ as well.
A very versatile wildcat that doesn't wear out brass as fast as the 260AI would. A smidge faster too (???).
Jerry
Went out to test at 300m (actually 345yds), Unfortunately, more nasty gusty crosswinds. Guesstimate at or over 15MPH due to the clouds of dust being blown up every now and then.
However, over the chrony I got some awesome news. The velocity is up where I hoped the design should be.
47.5gr H4831SC lit by a CCI BR2 w/ 139gr Lapua - 5 shot average 2900fps.
48.0gr H4831SC lit by Fed 210M w/ 139gr Lapua - 5 shot average 2950fps.
Both of these loads have shot bugholes at 200yds in dead calm condition.
This matches 6.5-284 performance with less powder and a more 'effecient' case design. 100% load density too. Maybe the Gaillard barrel has broken in enough to let things speed up a smidge.
Groups on paper weren't as amazing with 5 shot groups 2 to 2 1/2". Clusters of 3rds 1" or so and the others blown around.
I certainly cannot complain given the wind and mirage. At least, this gives me the confidence to know that it will still shoot possibles in nasty conditions if I can just dope it.
All of the basic design parameters have now been met and the only thing left to do is learn how to shoot it and go have some fun.
First 300m match end of Sept....
The big reason for using the 308 case was that it is far more accessible to me in Canada. Lapua brass is not easy to find and horridly expensive (even more then what you guys pay) if you can find it.
In Canada, we are limited to what we can shoot due to delays and import restrictions. The 308 is simply the safest and easiest case to find in bulk.
Also, no bolt face work (what little there might be) and the design will fit in most any short action and perform to these levels. Will run from the mags which the Swede might be a bit long for.
So the design can also serve me if I decide to shoot in any tactical matches that require a repeater. Of course, hunting would be suitable out to 700yds+ as well.
A very versatile wildcat that doesn't wear out brass as fast as the 260AI would. A smidge faster too (???).
Jerry
Jerry, congrats again for reinventing the wheel.
You continue to compare your cartrige to a 260AI, when there is no comparison.
From the measurements you gave in this post, the dimensions on a 260AI is only .015" shorter from the case head to shoulder junction. Thats about the thickness of 3 sheets of paper.
If you don't already know the 6.5-308AI is the same as a 260AI. All you did was run the reamer in an extra .015"
Problem is look at all the extra work your doing with the brass.
I simply load up the factory 260 rem brass and shoot, presto fireformed brass.
Your assumptions about the 260AI being rough on brass are completly false. I'm running 49 gr of H4831sc with a 140 gr a-max. Velocity is 2925fps and this is a 26" barrel, not a 30" as your rifle. I am now on my 5th reloading with the rem brass. The primer pockets are tight and I have yet to split a neck.
I understand your joy with your "new found cartrige", but don't promote it at the expense of a perfectly good existing round, which you have absolutly no experience with. If you did you wouldn't be making the assumptions you are.
You continue to compare your cartrige to a 260AI, when there is no comparison.
From the measurements you gave in this post, the dimensions on a 260AI is only .015" shorter from the case head to shoulder junction. Thats about the thickness of 3 sheets of paper.
If you don't already know the 6.5-308AI is the same as a 260AI. All you did was run the reamer in an extra .015"
Problem is look at all the extra work your doing with the brass.
I simply load up the factory 260 rem brass and shoot, presto fireformed brass.
Your assumptions about the 260AI being rough on brass are completly false. I'm running 49 gr of H4831sc with a 140 gr a-max. Velocity is 2925fps and this is a 26" barrel, not a 30" as your rifle. I am now on my 5th reloading with the rem brass. The primer pockets are tight and I have yet to split a neck.
I understand your joy with your "new found cartrige", but don't promote it at the expense of a perfectly good existing round, which you have absolutly no experience with. If you did you wouldn't be making the assumptions you are.
Jerry
After spending several days last fall arguing with GG and I about( Efficient )case designs and how there was no free lunch just more powder and pressure by a bunch of Wildcaters that were going to hurt themselves, I'm suprised to see you even mention the word Efficient in one of your posts!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I bet you just put in more powder at outrageous pressures just like all us less knowledgeable folks who Wildcat a case??? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif I'm glad your gun shoots well and good luck at your match. By the way we have known all along that case design can and does increase efficiency and now you seem to have figured it out as well. Congrats /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif---7mmRHB
After spending several days last fall arguing with GG and I about( Efficient )case designs and how there was no free lunch just more powder and pressure by a bunch of Wildcaters that were going to hurt themselves, I'm suprised to see you even mention the word Efficient in one of your posts!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I bet you just put in more powder at outrageous pressures just like all us less knowledgeable folks who Wildcat a case??? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif I'm glad your gun shoots well and good luck at your match. By the way we have known all along that case design can and does increase efficiency and now you seem to have figured it out as well. Congrats /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif---7mmRHB
Mysticplayer
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2001
- Messages
- 1,459
Coyboy, I am glad that your rifle is working as well as you say. That is fantastic velocity from a 26" barrel.
Now compared to your brass, dimensionally there is little difference from my case. Yes, we are a hair or two apart. However, wildcatting is about these slight differences and more importantly, the process needed to get there.
Your comment on the work needed in my Mystic is fair. However, I wanted a neck turned case with necks thick enough to meet a certain neck to chamber clearance goal. Small thing yes, but this required a larger parent case.
Also, there is no shortage of quality 308 brass. Availability is certainly better then 260/708 in my area. Necking up and down 243 brass would have been more work.
Living in the US, you have no idea what a pain getting components can be.
My process uses components I have access to and provides a cartridge with a desired end result. If it only appeals to me, then it has still met its goals.
By the way, the 260R pressure issues didn't come from me. I have made no comment on the AI (if I did, it was in error as I am refering to the reg 260 run to these pressures/velocities).
These comments came from posts on boards like BRCentral, SniperHide and such.
The promotion idea is interesting as this is not done for any gain or public accolade. Simply sharing an experience I have had wildcatting a rd. My idea of a better mousetrap.
Maybe we have just reached the same/similar destination from different directions.
But then is there much difference between the 6XC and the new 6-6.5X47L besides the primer pocket???? Some believe so.
7mmRHB, there is no free lunch and you bet that this wildcat is run at pressures higher then the 260R would be rated for. Has to be. However, with cases retaining tight primer pockets after 8 reloads and counting, I believe that I am not threading in dangerous pressure territory.
The orig goal was to meet the common 6.5-284 performance using less powder and 100% load density using components I have access to. This the Mystic does do.
I believe that a case design that optimises both powder volume (high load density) while meeting a specific performance/pressure is EFFECIENT.
Simply put I want the smallest case burning the least amount of powder to push the desired projectile at a specific velocity ACCURATELY. All this with sane enough pressures that cases can be loaded beyond 6 times.
In reality, most any case can approach this balance of load density and performance IF there is a suitable powder. Assume cases are all built to withstand equal max pressures and loads.
Some case sizes/shapes/performance goals would work best with a 'tween' powder which doesn't exist. Thus the users must use something that is too 'fast' or too 'slow' for a given set of performance parameters.
This is less then ideal and thus less EFFECIENT. Not saying this is bad. Just not perfect(at least in my books).
The size of the boiler room will always determine the max performance potential of any cartridge, given that pressure and load densities are held the same in this mythical barrel that gives the same muzzle velocity increase per unit of work/energy inputted.
The problem is what powder will make it all work?
Jerry
Now compared to your brass, dimensionally there is little difference from my case. Yes, we are a hair or two apart. However, wildcatting is about these slight differences and more importantly, the process needed to get there.
Your comment on the work needed in my Mystic is fair. However, I wanted a neck turned case with necks thick enough to meet a certain neck to chamber clearance goal. Small thing yes, but this required a larger parent case.
Also, there is no shortage of quality 308 brass. Availability is certainly better then 260/708 in my area. Necking up and down 243 brass would have been more work.
Living in the US, you have no idea what a pain getting components can be.
My process uses components I have access to and provides a cartridge with a desired end result. If it only appeals to me, then it has still met its goals.
By the way, the 260R pressure issues didn't come from me. I have made no comment on the AI (if I did, it was in error as I am refering to the reg 260 run to these pressures/velocities).
These comments came from posts on boards like BRCentral, SniperHide and such.
The promotion idea is interesting as this is not done for any gain or public accolade. Simply sharing an experience I have had wildcatting a rd. My idea of a better mousetrap.
Maybe we have just reached the same/similar destination from different directions.
But then is there much difference between the 6XC and the new 6-6.5X47L besides the primer pocket???? Some believe so.
7mmRHB, there is no free lunch and you bet that this wildcat is run at pressures higher then the 260R would be rated for. Has to be. However, with cases retaining tight primer pockets after 8 reloads and counting, I believe that I am not threading in dangerous pressure territory.
The orig goal was to meet the common 6.5-284 performance using less powder and 100% load density using components I have access to. This the Mystic does do.
I believe that a case design that optimises both powder volume (high load density) while meeting a specific performance/pressure is EFFECIENT.
Simply put I want the smallest case burning the least amount of powder to push the desired projectile at a specific velocity ACCURATELY. All this with sane enough pressures that cases can be loaded beyond 6 times.
In reality, most any case can approach this balance of load density and performance IF there is a suitable powder. Assume cases are all built to withstand equal max pressures and loads.
Some case sizes/shapes/performance goals would work best with a 'tween' powder which doesn't exist. Thus the users must use something that is too 'fast' or too 'slow' for a given set of performance parameters.
This is less then ideal and thus less EFFECIENT. Not saying this is bad. Just not perfect(at least in my books).
The size of the boiler room will always determine the max performance potential of any cartridge, given that pressure and load densities are held the same in this mythical barrel that gives the same muzzle velocity increase per unit of work/energy inputted.
The problem is what powder will make it all work?
Jerry
Mysticplayer
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2001
- Messages
- 1,459
alg, again, not available readily or reliably. About the only powders I have access to are from Hodgdon/IMR. I can get reloader from time to time.
Unfortunately, due to these component restrictions, I have to limit my projects.
would love to do a fast twist 6mm but without 115gr bullets, what's the point?
Jerry
Unfortunately, due to these component restrictions, I have to limit my projects.
would love to do a fast twist 6mm but without 115gr bullets, what's the point?
Jerry
goodgrouper
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
After spending several days last fall arguing with GG and I about( Efficient )case designs and how there was no free lunch just more powder and pressure by a bunch of Wildcaters that were going to hurt themselves, I'm suprised to see you even mention the word Efficient in one of your posts!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
I seem to remember that! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
After spending several days last fall arguing with GG and I about( Efficient )case designs and how there was no free lunch just more powder and pressure by a bunch of Wildcaters that were going to hurt themselves, I'm suprised to see you even mention the word Efficient in one of your posts!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
I seem to remember that! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Mysticplayer
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2001
- Messages
- 1,459
Thought you guys might like the group I just shot this morning at 345yds.
Swabbed the barrel as groups were starting to grow after 70rds of shooting. Just ran a dry patch down the pipe a few times. No chemicals. Took the fouling shot then hunkered down and hammered this 4rds.
And if you are wondering why I didn't shoot the 6th shot to make a 5rds group? Yes, I chickened out.
Is this typical? I wish. Nope more like 1/2" to 1" for 5 rds under most normal conditions of wind and mirage. I always seem to pull a shot. Oh well, good enough for possibles in F class.
A few more days to practise and then it is off to Kamloops. Apparently, the shoot is full so we will be shooting 5X15 rds instead of the 5X20. I am glad that we have to shoot a shorter course first time out. Very tiring to keep concentrating and form for 20rds.
Already shot 500rds and cleaned the barrel maybe 4 times. I am liking the stability and consistency the Gaillard is showing dispite being really fouled. Will come in handy for those long F class days.
Jerry
Swabbed the barrel as groups were starting to grow after 70rds of shooting. Just ran a dry patch down the pipe a few times. No chemicals. Took the fouling shot then hunkered down and hammered this 4rds.
And if you are wondering why I didn't shoot the 6th shot to make a 5rds group? Yes, I chickened out.
Is this typical? I wish. Nope more like 1/2" to 1" for 5 rds under most normal conditions of wind and mirage. I always seem to pull a shot. Oh well, good enough for possibles in F class.
A few more days to practise and then it is off to Kamloops. Apparently, the shoot is full so we will be shooting 5X15 rds instead of the 5X20. I am glad that we have to shoot a shorter course first time out. Very tiring to keep concentrating and form for 20rds.
Already shot 500rds and cleaned the barrel maybe 4 times. I am liking the stability and consistency the Gaillard is showing dispite being really fouled. Will come in handy for those long F class days.
Jerry
