5R Rifling -Yes or No?
- Thread starter Brown Dog
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G
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worth every penny... ;-)
I had it explained to me a while back... with lands and grooves opposite of each other there is less "pressure" or "squeeze" on the bullets as they travel down the barrel... hence the throughts are this contributes to more velocity and better accuracy...
sure seems to work on all my rifles
I had it explained to me a while back... with lands and grooves opposite of each other there is less "pressure" or "squeeze" on the bullets as they travel down the barrel... hence the throughts are this contributes to more velocity and better accuracy...
sure seems to work on all my rifles
winmagman
Well-Known Member
I've got 2 from Rock Creek barrels and given a choice I'd pick a 5R barrel over any other for just about anything I'd have built, Except maybe one of Kirbys AMs /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
5r rifling is certainly the way to go. opposing groove and lands means less deformation, as does the canted lands. cleans easily and great velocities out of both of my 5r border tubes.
as to the quality of border barrels work, i have 4 of their barrels. 2 of them are the archer barrels, built on rpa quadlites by rpa. accuracy is fantastic and both have taken a lot of silverware home this year.
the other 2 are cut-rifled 5r tubes in 6.5 on my f-class rifles. one is an accuracy international that borders re-barrelled for me and it is wicked(And is for sale if anyone is interested). best group this year is 1" for 5 shots at 500yards using a bipod!!!! the other one is on my 6.5-284 full race f-class gun that borders built for me on a quadlock action as shown below. workmanship and accuracy is as good as anything out there imho. colour scheme is optional....
geoff and the boys all shoot competitively and geoff's knowledge on barrels and ballistics is mind boggling. they come thoroughly reccomended
as to the quality of border barrels work, i have 4 of their barrels. 2 of them are the archer barrels, built on rpa quadlites by rpa. accuracy is fantastic and both have taken a lot of silverware home this year.
the other 2 are cut-rifled 5r tubes in 6.5 on my f-class rifles. one is an accuracy international that borders re-barrelled for me and it is wicked(And is for sale if anyone is interested). best group this year is 1" for 5 shots at 500yards using a bipod!!!! the other one is on my 6.5-284 full race f-class gun that borders built for me on a quadlock action as shown below. workmanship and accuracy is as good as anything out there imho. colour scheme is optional....
geoff and the boys all shoot competitively and geoff's knowledge on barrels and ballistics is mind boggling. they come thoroughly reccomended
G
Guest
Guest
I have had the privilege of owning...
Kreiger, Lilja, Hart, Douglas, K&P, Rock Creek and Broughton...
In my personal experience...
Rock Creek and Broughton with the 5R are at the top of the list in my book.
I will say that Broughtons broke in faster and clean easier. Initial accuracy with the Broughtons have a slight edge.
I have to say that I have not shot the Lilja 3 groove.
In any respect 5R has proven to me to be a far superior method.
Kreiger, Lilja, Hart, Douglas, K&P, Rock Creek and Broughton...
In my personal experience...
Rock Creek and Broughton with the 5R are at the top of the list in my book.
I will say that Broughtons broke in faster and clean easier. Initial accuracy with the Broughtons have a slight edge.
I have to say that I have not shot the Lilja 3 groove.
In any respect 5R has proven to me to be a far superior method.
All,
Thanks for your answers -seems to be a universal 'thumbs-up' at the moment.
What sort of vel increase are you seeing?
I'm wondering (actually, hoping for reasons of weight saving) if (in 308) a 22" 5R might roughly equate to a 24" conventional. Thoughts?
Anyone have negative thoughts / experiences with 5R?
Scirocco,
My only experience with Border is the barrel on my AW. Conventional cut rifled, 0.3MOA or better including 3 shots from cold bore (I'm the limiting factor!). I've only heard good things about them.
Thanks for your answers -seems to be a universal 'thumbs-up' at the moment.
What sort of vel increase are you seeing?
I'm wondering (actually, hoping for reasons of weight saving) if (in 308) a 22" 5R might roughly equate to a 24" conventional. Thoughts?
Anyone have negative thoughts / experiences with 5R?
Scirocco,
My only experience with Border is the barrel on my AW. Conventional cut rifled, 0.3MOA or better including 3 shots from cold bore (I'm the limiting factor!). I've only heard good things about them.
chris matthews
Well-Known Member
Brown Dog,
There are no negatives with the 5R.....I have built and/or been part of building over 1000 custom rifles on 5R barrels from Obermeyer, Rock, Border, Broughton and Schneider. Everything the guys have said is true about them- easy cleaning, more speed (yes a 22" 5R gives you the same velocity of a conventional 24 or even 26" barrel) and most importantly- excellent accuracy.
There are no negatives with the 5R.....I have built and/or been part of building over 1000 custom rifles on 5R barrels from Obermeyer, Rock, Border, Broughton and Schneider. Everything the guys have said is true about them- easy cleaning, more speed (yes a 22" 5R gives you the same velocity of a conventional 24 or even 26" barrel) and most importantly- excellent accuracy.
Brown Dog
Negative thoughts /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gifyeah I don't have enough 5-C Barrels /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif:
One 6.5 Broughton
And one new 300WSM Broughton
The .30 cal cleaned up and broke in so quickly I thought I was missing something. I hit the powder with TEC and even tried a 2nd copper cleaner to check it.
Negative thoughts /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gifyeah I don't have enough 5-C Barrels /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif:
One 6.5 Broughton
And one new 300WSM Broughton
The .30 cal cleaned up and broke in so quickly I thought I was missing something. I hit the powder with TEC and even tried a 2nd copper cleaner to check it.
Pete Lincoln
Well-Known Member
Yes Matt.. i can also agree with most of whats been said,, can't say ive seen any accuracy difference in non 5R and 5R but especialy the velocity increase makes the 5R interesting. i'm getting between 75 and 90 FPS faster out of a 5R barrels thats 21.5" long over the previouse standard rifled 24" tube
Regards Pete
Regards Pete
JR
Well-Known Member
Brown Dog,
For the additional work that has to be done to the tooling in order to make a 5r rifling profile, £6 surcharge is a bargain.
Geoff and I have probably made somewhere around 40K match grade barrels between us. Most of them rifled one-two hours at a time. Gives us time to think things thru..
The '5r project' came about in a conversation prior to the 2002 Imperial Meeting at Camp Bisley. There were some american shooters who had inquired if we made such a thing, which at that time we hadn't. Geoff and I started asking around to see if there was indeed a market for 5r in this part of the world. There was. Problem was, we didn't have any 5r's lying about to reference..So we humbly requested the permission and guidance of Boots Obermeyer, as he is the guru, which he in turn graciously assisted us in setting up the toolmaking facility, and offered his invaluable experience and expertise.
After months and months of 'smoothing out' the toolmaking process and gathering the proper inspection and gaging tools, we felt we could then generate the proper 5r form while maintaining a concentric groove radius..So we initiated production.
Believe you me, we were just as or more curious to see how the 5r's would perform. Big risk for a place who is well known for making accurate barrels, to replicate a rifling form which was made popular by another very well known accurate barrelmaker...We'd researched the potential, worked it out on paper and ticked all the boxes, but until you send a bullet down the pipe, you just don't know, do ya..Haven't looked back..
I don't make gimmicks. Don't have the time. But to emphasize 'if' they work, every employee that shoots here including Geoff shoots with a 5r barrel. Match rifles, stalking rifles, and varmint rifles..If they weren't working, I wouldn't hear the end of it eh...
The percent of increase of orders for 5r vs 4 and 6 groove over the past few years has been almost overwhelming. I would say 50% of our customer centrefire barrels made by cut rifling are now in the 5r profile due to customer demand. I have a Swiss customer who alone orders 80 plus barrel blanks at a whack, and all in 5r.
What we've seen firsthand:
Velocity potential. Our Dennis and Lee are using 32" 6.5 x 284 Norma 8.46 twist 5r's for F-Class, 139 lapuas, and driving them at 3200+ fps with ES in the low teens to single digits over a 20 shot string. Lee was previously using a 29" 6 groove barrel with velocities around 2880fps and highish pressures with the same cartridge.(as a side note, his 24" 22-250 5r was getting velocities over 4000 fps with the 52's, we've since backed it down to 3880.)
Life. The same said 6 groove fag mag'shot out' at less than 900 rounds. Throat has seen better days, looks typical of what I would generally expect out of the fag mag. The faster 5rs are still going strong at 1300 rds..Bit of firecracking(which I think is due to the N170 used at the start), but the throat hasn't moved much atall..I'm not sure why this is, surprised really, but it's a plus nonetheless. Perhaps it's because the land that wears out, and this particular profile is more wear-efficient due to it's shape, land's a bit wider at the bottom than the top.
And they clean up well.
Anyway guys, the point I'm trying to make is we didn't approach this method blindly, we are constantly evaluating the performance on our rifles. I wouldn't say our 5r is more accurate for group than our 4 and 6 groove barrels, but is definitely not less..They all shoot well..
What I can guarantee is in the next month either Geoff, Dennis, or Lee will be asking 'when you making 5r's again?'(they know I'm tooling up for mine) hah...
JR
For the additional work that has to be done to the tooling in order to make a 5r rifling profile, £6 surcharge is a bargain.
Geoff and I have probably made somewhere around 40K match grade barrels between us. Most of them rifled one-two hours at a time. Gives us time to think things thru..
The '5r project' came about in a conversation prior to the 2002 Imperial Meeting at Camp Bisley. There were some american shooters who had inquired if we made such a thing, which at that time we hadn't. Geoff and I started asking around to see if there was indeed a market for 5r in this part of the world. There was. Problem was, we didn't have any 5r's lying about to reference..So we humbly requested the permission and guidance of Boots Obermeyer, as he is the guru, which he in turn graciously assisted us in setting up the toolmaking facility, and offered his invaluable experience and expertise.
After months and months of 'smoothing out' the toolmaking process and gathering the proper inspection and gaging tools, we felt we could then generate the proper 5r form while maintaining a concentric groove radius..So we initiated production.
Believe you me, we were just as or more curious to see how the 5r's would perform. Big risk for a place who is well known for making accurate barrels, to replicate a rifling form which was made popular by another very well known accurate barrelmaker...We'd researched the potential, worked it out on paper and ticked all the boxes, but until you send a bullet down the pipe, you just don't know, do ya..Haven't looked back..
I don't make gimmicks. Don't have the time. But to emphasize 'if' they work, every employee that shoots here including Geoff shoots with a 5r barrel. Match rifles, stalking rifles, and varmint rifles..If they weren't working, I wouldn't hear the end of it eh...
The percent of increase of orders for 5r vs 4 and 6 groove over the past few years has been almost overwhelming. I would say 50% of our customer centrefire barrels made by cut rifling are now in the 5r profile due to customer demand. I have a Swiss customer who alone orders 80 plus barrel blanks at a whack, and all in 5r.
What we've seen firsthand:
Velocity potential. Our Dennis and Lee are using 32" 6.5 x 284 Norma 8.46 twist 5r's for F-Class, 139 lapuas, and driving them at 3200+ fps with ES in the low teens to single digits over a 20 shot string. Lee was previously using a 29" 6 groove barrel with velocities around 2880fps and highish pressures with the same cartridge.(as a side note, his 24" 22-250 5r was getting velocities over 4000 fps with the 52's, we've since backed it down to 3880.)
Life. The same said 6 groove fag mag'shot out' at less than 900 rounds. Throat has seen better days, looks typical of what I would generally expect out of the fag mag. The faster 5rs are still going strong at 1300 rds..Bit of firecracking(which I think is due to the N170 used at the start), but the throat hasn't moved much atall..I'm not sure why this is, surprised really, but it's a plus nonetheless. Perhaps it's because the land that wears out, and this particular profile is more wear-efficient due to it's shape, land's a bit wider at the bottom than the top.
And they clean up well.
Anyway guys, the point I'm trying to make is we didn't approach this method blindly, we are constantly evaluating the performance on our rifles. I wouldn't say our 5r is more accurate for group than our 4 and 6 groove barrels, but is definitely not less..They all shoot well..
What I can guarantee is in the next month either Geoff, Dennis, or Lee will be asking 'when you making 5r's again?'(they know I'm tooling up for mine) hah...
JR
