45-70 elk hunt - 250 SH or 300g Barnes TSX FN

wild_musk

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Clovis, NM
Still trying to decide between these 2 bullets for my elk hunt. I have developed loads for both. I've not used Hammers before, but most people seem to be using them similar to a Berger...high velocity. Anyone try them with a 45-70 at 2500ish? I got nervous about it and went back to the Barnes, which ins't as flat shooting but I know will perform. Am I worried for nothing?
 
Still trying to decide between these 2 bullets for my elk hunt. I have developed loads for both. I've not used Hammers before, but most people seem to be using them similar to a Berger...high velocity. Anyone try them with a 45-70 at 2500ish? I got nervous about it and went back to the Barnes, which ins't as flat shooting but I know will perform. Am I worried for nothing?
Yes, the terminal performance of Hammers is well documented. I would not even hesitate one second using the 45/70 at 2500 or so. Especially at 45/70 expected range.
 
Thanks...I actually tried deleting this post because it's so similar to one I posted a couple months ago. But I have had quite the journey with this 45-70 over the summer.
 
Thanks...I actually tried deleting this post because it's so similar to one I posted a couple months ago. But I have had quite the journey with this 45-70 over the summer.

I've used the 300TSX, 402SH and the 250 MonoFlex in my 1895SBL. I've had good results with all of them. However, it was hard to achieve expected velocities with the 250 mono in an 18.5" bbl.
Could you share your experience with the 250SH? What bbl length do you have?
 
Sure. I have a modern Win 1886 with 24" barrel. Reloading manuals group Marlin and modern 1886s together, I dont know if one action is stronger. Barnes was the only place I found that published 250g and 300g bullet data for what I wanted to do. They state they go to 42k psi in their Marlin with a 24" barrel, but SAAMI is 25k. You should be aware that different 45-70 bullets can take up significantly more or less case capacity, which greatly affects pressure. So dont assume, as I did, that one 250g bullet load will be "pretty close" for another 250g bullet. I fired loads this summer that were too hot where the lever got sticky when using a charge weight I thought well under max. (Tried my load for Hornady 300g with a Hammer 276g - Hammers take up more case volume even though its a lighter bullet...dumb dumb dumb). Further inspection showed the case heads had witness marks from the breech face and a slight swelling of circumference (about .002") just above the rim - I only discovered the last one because I made a Little Crow style brass trimmer, and all the brass with witness marks were a tight fit down by the rim. Some didnt want to go in. Anyway, back to the 250g SH, 1680 had no problem getting over 2500fps. In fact, quite a bit higher, but nothing was accurate for me. Stumped, I wanted to try a powder similar to aa1680 but filled the case up better. I eventually worked up to a load with IMR4198 (suggested by a man with way more experience loading 45-70). 55g gave 2500fps on a warm day without any pressure signs. I'm able to test at home, so I'd just walk outside and shoot across the chrono to keep the powder from warming up too much because it was 110 for 2 freakin months here this year. I went higher but backed off when I saw the first case head mark. Yesterday I got my ancient computer booted and Quickload showed about 42k psi depnding on case capacity/seating depth, temp, burn rate variance...all these variables in QL can be manuevered around to make you feel better or worse about psi, so use with care. Great tool tho. I loaded Starline brass with Fed 210s to 2.525 OAL. It's compressed, showing 110% or so. Case volume is 79g water on my cases which also matched QL.

As of yesterday I'm almost out of I4198, and there's none to be had. Havent seen H4198 in years. I ordered N120 yesterday, looks promising.

With your short barrel, I'd suggest aa1680 or N120. Start at the bottom of the Barnes data and work up...people always say that, but 45-70 has been extra tricky for me. I don't know what pressure signs you should look for in a Marlin, maybe Google it. FWIW, I had no blown primers or loose pockets, even on the stoutest loads I tried. I will try to run QL to see how much velocity you can expect to loose and get back to you.

Last thing, you may need a higher front sight unless your rifle is scoped. Skinner sights has an equation to estimate front sight height on their web page, good resource if this is an issue.
 
First off, let me say I am a huge fan of the 45-70. I have shot a ton of stuff with that cartridge. However, if your Elk hunt will likely provide shots of 200 yards+ then I would be looking at something other than a 45-70. Taking light for calibre bullets and speeding them up to flatten the trajectory is kind of the antithesis of large bores. A 375 Ruger will serve you far better on 400 yard shots.

If your shots will be under 200 yards and most less than that, then it is hard to beat the 350 grain Hornady Round Nose for terminal performance. A leupold 1.5x5 scope with a B&C reticle will work great to 250 yards.
 
My limit is 200yards. This rifle is open sights only, there's no provision for mounting optics. I know this is a long range site, but I've always had the best luck with advice here, even if it's not really on topic. The whole point of this hunt is to use this old school rifle. It's this or my recurve, and I'll likely take my bow along as well, it's any legal weapon.
 
My limit is 200yards. This rifle is open sights only, there's no provision for mounting optics. I know this is a long range site, but I've always had the best luck with advice here, even if it's not really on topic. The whole point of this hunt is to use this old school rifle. It's this or my recurve, and I'll likely take my bow along as well, it's any legal weapon.
Open sights, hopefully a peep, and 200 yards, is very doable. The 350 grain Horn at 1600-1800 fps, you can load them hotter but they don'tkill any better, puts a major smack down on moose and elk. Sighted to zero at 150, your POI will be great from 25 yards to just over 200. Give the combo a try. Use a tall piece of paper as a target, I think you will be suprised at how flat it is from 25 yards to 200 when sighted to zero at 150.
 
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I think you will be suprised at how flat it is from 25 yards to 200 when sighted to zero at 150.
Ha, I believe you, I'll try them out. After working to get 2500 with the 250 SH, I finally ran the slower 300g Barnes ballistics, which was only 4-5" difference at 200. I only got cold feet when I finally put it in QL and it may still be too hot, even though I'm not seeing any negative pressure signs. And yes, adjustable peep with a square blade front sight.
 
Ha, I believe you, I'll try them out. After working to get 2500 with the 250 SH, I finally ran the slower 300g Barnes ballistics, which was only 4-5" difference at 200. I only got cold feet when I finally put it in QL and it may still be too hot, even though I'm not seeing any negative pressure signs. And yes, adjustable peep with a square blade front sight.
Let us know how you make out testimg point blank range with the various loads.
 
More speed gets you a flatter trajectory.
I'm shooting 400 Grain Speer Jacketed Soft Points at 1750 with 52.0 grains of IMR 3031 in .45-70 cases and a 22" Marlin .45-70.
I'm pretty sure they'd kill just fine at 1300-1400 FPS on Elk.
If you can get closer, like watching a game trail, you won't need 2500 FPS.

I'd maybe expect that high velocity 250 grain @2500 fps out of my .45-90 WCF 26", but for sure not in a .45-70 case in my lever guns. I'm not that brave and my .45-70 barrels are shorter than yours. 18"-22".
I've chronographed my .45-90 WCF loads at 1926 fps with a Gould 330 HP cast in a Lyman 457122 mold. I can't imagine trying for 2500 FPS. And it would be WOW! DESTRUCTIVE at that speed.
A South Texas Javelina sure wouldn't have been any deader.
Good luck with your quest.

I gently recommend you look for accuracy over velocity in your lever gun.

If you're chasing velocity, you might consider for future hunts, go to a different cartridge if possible.

A .338 Winchester Magnum with 250 grain bullets sounds, to me, more like what you are trying to create in your lever action trials.
It will meet your velocity wants and bullet weight parameters AND ALSO extend your range options.

Just my thoughts on the subject.
Again, good luck.
 
Thanks, I appreciate your comments. The published Barnes data for 250g TSX-FN shows a max load 57.5g aa1680 at 2609fps. I agree, I want to find the "best" load, not simply velocity. My rifle just happened to have great accuracy at approx 2500fps with the 250g Hammer. I do own other rifles for precision long range shooting, I just like this rifle right now.
 
I checked Barnes .45-70 load data for the 250 and 300 TSX in a Marlin.
Wow. I had no idea that type of velocity was possible in a Marlin .45-70.
Good luck with your quest and good hunting. Let us see some results of a 7x7 Bull down,
 
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