45-70 annealing?

[Alibiiv]

The straight sided cases don't need annealing in my opinion even though I am a big fan of annealing on brass cases.

Straight sided cases don't get the work that bottle necked do and like mentioned, keeping them trimmed especially if you are crimping is more important.

Watch for over sizing. (You will be able to see the bullet seating depth because of the bulge in the case after loading. If this occurs, I recommend getting different dies) Over sizing will reduce case life.

J E CUSTOM

Curious about what you mean "over resizing the brass"? I use the plug die/chamfer die to bell-mouth the the brass. I'm just having difficulty setting the crimp die, for that reason I am starting to dislike the Hornady dies. I have loaded many straight walled pistol/rifle ammunition, never an issue, this one seems to be different. This is the reason that I posted this thread to figure out if there's something that I am or am not doing that will eliminate this issue.

 

[J E Custom]

Curious about what you mean "over resizing the brass"? I use the plug die/chamfer die to bell-mouth the the brass. I'm just having difficulty setting the crimp die, for that reason I am starting to dislike the Hornady dies. I have loaded many straight walled pistol/rifle ammunition, never an issue, this one seems to be different. This is the reason that I posted this thread to figure out if there's something that I am or am not doing that will eliminate this issue.

What I was referring to was that Most dies size to much (To Small) for some chambers so they will fit in any chamber no matter how close to Minimum SAMMI dimension, And in a loose chamber they over size.

I recommend setting up your dies using the/your chamber instead of just setting against the shell holder.

J E CUSTOM

 

[jpndave]

Congrats on the new Marlins! I picked up a 1895SBL and love it!

A lot of the Marlin owners swear by the Lee Factory Crimp (collet type) die. I use mostly Redding dies but on this application and now my straight walled revolver 357/38 and 44 mag loads the collet crimp works a lot better. It might solve your crimp problem. Because it crimps by compressing straight in rather than rolling or taper crimping it is forgiving of length variations and more consistent.

Here's the factory page for the 45/70 crimp die.
https://leeprecision.com/factory-crimp-die-45-70.html

 

[jpndave]

Also, the Lyman "M" expander is supposed to work better on belling the neck to take, In particular, the slightly larger hard cast bullets. I haven't tried it yet but plan to.

 

[nicholasjohn]

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The 45-70 is about all the recoil I want to take. The Guide Gun has a built in compensator, but it does nothing for recoil! I put a 1 inch KickEez pad that takes some of the bite out of it. I like the Guide Gun for bear hunting in a ground blind, short and very handy.

I have a rifle that has a Dead Mule inertia device in the buttstock, as well as the KickEez pad. The device added about 6 or 7 ounces to the weight of the rifle, and the felt recoil is noticeably less. I had both the Dead Mule and the new pad installed at the same time, so I don't know if one or the other made more of a difference, but I do think that together they have tamed the rifle down quite a lot. I didn't want to put a muzzle brake on the rifle, due to the added noise level. These two changes made more of a difference than I got when I had a rifle Magna-Ported years ago, without any extra muzzle blast. I think Brownell's caries the Dead Mule device.

 

[jpndave]

Factory Remington load left, HSM "Bear Load" 430gr center, 405gr handload with Lee crimp right. Notice as J E CUSTOM posted the over resized brass, I need to back that off a bit.

 

[257RobertsMan]

I just picked a couple of Marlin 45-70s, a Guide Gun JM and an older 1895JM (1975), and have been playing with some loads for the rifles. I have read different opinions on the need for annealing straight walled cases. I'd appreciate other's opinions/thoughts on annealing straight walled 45-70 brass?

I would also like to included that I have annealed 20 cases of Hornady brass and have noticed that I am having trouble setting the crimp on those cases. I am using a set of Hornady Match dies and a Barnes Triple-Shock (TSX) 300 grain Flat Point Hollow Point bullet; and, there/s a really good cannular groove in that bullet. This is the reason for this thread, not sure if the annealing has caused my problem, or if it's the nut behind the seating die having difficulty finding that "sweet spot" on the die?

If the Hornady Brass was factory loaded with FTX bullets, the brass will be shorter than other brands of brass. You will need to measure this and adjust your crimping die accordingly.

 

[257RobertsMan]

The Hornady 9th addition Handbook, pg 645 and following gives specs for brass trimming if FTX bullets are used. Factory Loaded brass using FTX bullets come already trimmed shorter, thus it may not have anything to do with your annealing. It may be that a simple adjusting of your crimping die to accommodate the shorter Hornady brass may be in order. Hope this helps.

 

[crkckr]

First off, check to see if fired brass from both guns will chamber in both guns without sizing... it should. If it does, you do not need to size the entire length of the case, but only to just below where the bullet seats. You'll still have a bit of a bulge where the bullet seats but you won't be working the entire case.

Are you trying to seat the bullets and crimp at the same time? I've never had luck with that, even with carefully trimmed brass unless it's just a taper crimp, which I don't believe is enough for a 45-75. I seat bullets until they are about 75% of the way up the cannelure, then crimp seperately. I usually just put the crimp die lower than needed then use gentle pressure on the press handle to make the crimp. I can feel each one as the brass folds into the cannelure, which should be all the crimp needed. This gives me very good case life and fewer cracks in the case mouth.
I don't anneal my straight wall cases, most of which are nickel plated (.44, .357/.38 & 357 Max) as I like the ease of clean up.

Sometimes you might have to resize farther down the case with lever guns, since the chambers are usually oversized to facilitate extraction. Just size them as far as necessary to get them to chamber easily in both guns (unless you want seperate ammo for each? I wouldn't recommend that, much too complicated!). However, I have heard over the years that even straight walled cases should be annealed, at least around the case mouth, to prevent case mouth cracks. Having never tried it, I can't really say one way or the other. It should not have any effect on your crimping operation.
Cheers,
crkckr

 

[Alibiiv]

Are you trying to seat the bullets and crimp at the same time? I've never had luck with that, even with carefully trimmed brass unless it's just a taper crimp, which I don't believe is enough for a 45-75. I seat bullets until they are about 75% of the way up the cannelure, then crimp seperately. I usually just put the crimp die lower than needed then use gentle pressure on the press handle to make the crimp. I can feel each one as the brass folds into the cannelure, which should be all the crimp needed. This gives me very good case life and fewer cracks in the case mouth.
I don't anneal my straight wall cases, most of which are nickel plated (.44, .357/.38 & 357 Max) as I like the ease of clean up.

Sometimes you might have to resize farther down the case with lever guns, since the chambers are usually oversized to facilitate extraction. Just size them as far as necessary to get them to chamber easily in both guns (unless you want seperate ammo for each? I wouldn't recommend that, much too complicated!). However, I have heard over the years that even straight walled cases should be annealed, at least around the case mouth, to prevent case mouth cracks. Having never tried it, I can't really say one way or the other. It should not have any effect on your crimping operation.
Cheers,
crkckr[/QUOTE]

I have been crimping at the same time as seating, never thought about backing the crimping section of the die and then crimping. I did order one of the Lee collet crimp dies and a Lee universal bell mouth die, I'm thinking that is the way to go? I will try sizing half way down the casing to see how that works. Both of these rifles are hunting rifles, the shots generally are within 50-60 yards or closer. But they all have to go "bang" and most importantly they have to reliably eject. There's been some really great responses on this thread, very helpful with some great ideas and great information. Thank you for all the replies.

First off, check to see if fired brass from both guns will chamber in both guns without sizing... it should. If it does, you do not need to size the entire length of the case, but only to just below where the bullet seats. You'll still have a bit of a bulge where the bullet seats but you won't be working the entire case.

 

[Clem Bronkoski]

I've been loading the 45-70 for years. I have a Pedersoli Sharps, a Marlin Guide Gun (ported), A Marlin SBL, and a Marlin 1895 Cowboy. I've never annealed my brass and some have as many as 10 loadings.

 

[Alibiiv]

I've been loading the 45-70 for years. I have a Pedersoli Sharps, a Marlin Guide Gun (ported), A Marlin SBL, and a Marlin 1895 Cowboy. I've never annealed my brass and some have as many as 10 loadings.

Curious about what make brass you are using to get 10 reloads out of? Most of my brass is Hornady because that's all that I can find, but I do have some Starline nickepl brass that seems to be pretty good.

 

[Clem Bronkoski]

About 80% of my brass is Starline. I also have some Winchester that is pretty new. Not sure how many loads I have on that without looking. Maybe only 3-4.
When I load for my Sharps I do not roll crimp those. So less work hardening on those.