375 Caliber A-max...might be a possibility. Please read.

[bigngreen]

Anybody try annealing the forward portion of the 350 gr SMK ?

Some shooters here on LRH were doing that with the 160 gr 6.5mm Matrix bullet to help initiate expansion at distance and slower velocities ..

I gotta locate that thread and see how they fared with that process !

Annealing the tips on those 160 works very well, takes a bullet that won't open to a bullet that opens well and creates carnage.
I've though about this with the 350 SMK, it may help but I think that it's sooo thick that you won't see the big improvement like the thinner jackets but I have not tested it and things can surprise you when bullet actually get launched!

 

[Kennibear]

Swamplord

I have two friends that swear by the Scirroccos in 300 RUM. Regular 600 yards + success on elk. Swift does 375 but not in the Scirrocco line. I am aware of the development costs but I have wanted that very product, same as you have and I suspect many on this thread. If they came out with a 375 Scirrocco (just typing it gives me chills!) they would plunder the 375 bullet market. Other makers would have to offer rebates...

HarperC

Hope your neck recovers. Wife in for torn rotator cup surgery in January, six months recovery. May the Holy Spirit intercede in your neck problem.

BenchRacer

Concerning straight line penetration on game. in my miss-spent youth my brother and I tossed every bullet we could find through every solid object available. Couple of truths we discovered that were later confirmed by the African PH writers in the gun mags:
1) Pointy bullets deflect unpredictably when striking hard objects. APT 172 grain 308's angled off hits like a Que ball on a bank shot.
2) Round nose parallel sided bullets tend to maintain the original path and have less deflection.
3) Wadcutters chop a straight hole through.
The 375 Sierra 350 SMK clearly works as reported on this website. African PH's extol the virtues of solids above all other bullet types. Its only those crazy Americans that like their bullets to self-destruct in a controlled fashion.

Love this thread!

KB

 

[benchracer]

BenchRacer

Concerning straight line penetration on game. in my miss-spent youth my brother and I tossed every bullet we could find through every solid object available. Couple of truths we discovered that were later confirmed by the African PH writers in the gun mags:
1) Pointy bullets deflect unpredictably when striking hard objects. APT 172 grain 308's angled off hits like a Que ball on a bank shot.
2) Round nose parallel sided bullets tend to maintain the original path and have less deflection.
3) Wadcutters chop a straight hole through.
The 375 Sierra 350 SMK clearly works as reported on this website. African PH's extol the virtues of solids above all other bullet types. Its only those crazy Americans that like their bullets to self-destruct in a controlled fashion.

Interesting comments on the behavior of spitzer bullets. I don't suppose I can consider a dirt bank to be a solid object, so I have to consider my observations regarding the 350 SMK to be of value only relative to soft objects. Still, looking at that big ol' chunk of lead conjures visions in my head of CRUSHED elk shoulders. Might be just fantasy, though.

 

[Swamplord]

In the end what talks are bullet sales, I know of no one shooting a 375 H&H that would buy more than one box of of these for anything more than playing with because they would be new.

The chambering that will sell bullets will be the ELR chamberings, to me that would be at the very least a 375 on an improved Lapua case and more so the Cheytac case. If there was a 370gr A-max I'd have a reamer on order tomorrow for a SnipeTac and I plan on burning the barrel of it with hundreds of bullet a year.

There is a strong number of guys shooting for group at a mile plus using the Cheytac case and shooting for score or group size, those shooter will buy bullets by the truck load!

100% agree on that assessment !

Here in Alaska the 375 H&H is very popular with the hunters and is used to hunt all Alaskan big game, even caribou and Sitka Blacktail deer simply because of insurance for the brown bears, in most units moose hunting coincides with brown bear hunting and it's a do all package at close in to moderate range... (200 yards and less) ! Most of these guys will fire less than 10 rounds to check sights prior to hunting and a round or two on game and almost always with factory loads in LESS than 300 gr weight bullets to counter the recoil..... then done deal, rifles put away for remainder of year until next season..... this is NOT the consumer to be targeted with a new bc fueled bullet.....

The guys out here that own and shoot the 375-338 Lapua Imp, 375 CheyTac and 375 SnipeTac will send hundreds of bullets every weekend at steel, targets and distant rocks on a mountainside 1000 - 2000 yards away... and will do this throughout the course of a year..... It is here that one long range shooter will consume more bullets in a year than all the hunters combined.... and I suspect this is the same scenario in all the Western states and possibly the rest of the US.... Now we see where the real demand lies and needs to be addressed by the bullet manufacturers....

my 375 wildcat cartridges the 375 PRO and 375 Mjolnir will both benefit greatly from a 350 -375 gr Amax or Berger VLD , .....................AND !!!

I am currently finalizing dimensions on another 375 cal wildcat that will scream for the heavies !
At this point all I can say is.. it has a 338 Lapua sized boltface and case water capacity is similar to the 375 Chey Tac.... basically a 12-15 grain increase in capacity over my 375 Mjolnir......
i call it the 375 Executioner.........................................

Does it seem like I am biased in favor of the heavy 375 cal bullets ? You think, Really ?

 

[benchracer]

Most of these guys will fire less than 10 rounds to check sights prior to hunting and a round or two on game and almost always with factory loads in LESS than 300 gr weight bullets to counter the recoil..... then done deal, rifles put away for remainder of year until next season..... this is NOT the consumer to be targeted with a new bc fueled bullet.....

You just described not only the average 30-06 owner, but the average hunter of big game. Just who, exactly, do you think the high bc hunting bullets being made in all the other calibers are being made for? Is it really your contention that a handful of hardcore long rangers are the reason such bullets are so hard to find for sale? While the hard core long rangers most definitely drove the development of such bullets (and god bless 'em for that), it is absurd to suggest that they are the primary market being targeted by the bullet makers. If that were the case, such products would never have seen the light of day. The very growth of the numbers of people who frequent this site is proof of the broad appeal of better bullets, better rifles, better optics, and better shooter capabilities.

Even if I buy your premise, which I don't, sheer economy of scale suggests that you are paddling a leaky boat.

 

[bigngreen]

You just described not only the average 30-06 owner, but the average hunter of big game. Just who, exactly, do you think the high bc hunting bullets being made in all the other calibers are being made for? Is it really your contention that a handful of hardcore long rangers are the reason such bullets are so hard to find for sale? While the hard core long rangers most definitely drove the development of such bullets (and god bless 'em for that), it is absurd to suggest that they are the primary market being targeted by the bullet makers. If that were the case, such products would never have seen the light of day. The very growth of the numbers of people who frequent this site is proof of the broad appeal of better bullets, better rifles, better optics, and better shooter capabilities.

Even if I buy your premise, which I don't, sheer economy of scale suggests that you are paddling a leaky boat.

Target and long range shooters are the bulk of the sales of these kind of bullets, the average Joe guys I hunt with don't even know the A-max exists and they don't buy more than a box of bullets a season. All of the long range target and hunting shooters I know buy and shoot thousands of rounds a year, and buy in bulk. Average Joe has nothing to do with the market in bullets like the A-max, if he did you would see factory hunting ammunition loaded with A-max bullets and you most definitely do not!

If you look at the latest A-max to be developed it was not for the 338 Winchester shooters but the 338 Lapua and Norma shooters.

 

[Erik Kiser]

The 300 gr offerings in .338 are on almost constant back order and that's not due to your average hunter. I, like all of you, know plenty of guys that pull their rifles out the week before season, fire off a few rounds at a paper plate stapled to a tree and go hunting. They may shoot a couple animals and then put the rifle away till next year. All told, they fired less than 10 rounds. I can't believe that's the market they'd want to build a new bullet for in a caliber that will never be as popular as a 7mm or 30. My point is that if you're gonna build a bullet for a caliber that relatively few people shoot I'd think you'd build it for the percentage of those shooters that shoot the most. In a perfect world it would be great if they could release two weights, maybe a 300 and a 375

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I think Bigngreen and Swamplord are right. The Vast majority (probably 90% or more) of 375 H&H and 375 Ruger and 375 RUM owners will be shooting less than 2 boxes of factory ammo and most of those probably less than 1 box a year. And yes, that does describe the average 30-06 owner and deer hunter in general. I used to be one of those guys for many years until I got into handloading. It is a small percentage of shooters who shoot the greatest amount of bullets. Most of those shooters are the competition shooters who also use the high BC bullets for longer ranges. The competiton shooters, shoot many more bullets than most of us general long range shooters who shoot at rocks and steel. Many of us own multiple rifles that we might shoot enough to remain proficient in but probably shoot just one or two rifles on a regular basis. For me, the 223, 22-250 and 6-284 will get the greatest workouts, especially over PD towns.

Now if I were to build a 375, as I mentioned before, it would be off a CheyTac or similar cartridge. The rifle would be purely for ELR and I would only be interested in bullets in the 1 BC class. This type of rifle is on my list. I would only shoot this type of rifle ocasionally maybe, 3 or 4 times a year for a couple of reasons being that bullets would cost $2 plus ea and the nearest locations to shoot it are at least an hour drive for me, plus I have other rifles to shoot for fum, at prairie dogs and hunting etc., not to mention my work keeps me on the road a lot. There are going to be a lot of 375 shooters in my category.

Now there will be a few of you who shoot the 375 LM Imp, 378 Wby and RUMs who will shoot a lesser than 1 BC bullets and will use these rifle for LR hunting and general LR shooting. Some of you might shoot a 100 rounds a year or less and some might shoot several hundred or more.

Some of you will shoot the CheyTac class of 375 and shoot the lesser than 1 BC bullets for LR hunting and general LR shooting, but I see most of these shooters using this class of rifle for general recreational shooting vs hunting due to lack of mobility.

I see 3 classes of shooters interested in 2 types of bullets. This thread is about one of those types of bullets for 2 classes of shooters, but primarily for the hunters.

The manufacturer needs a reason to develop and make these bullets and the bullets need to fit the overall requirements for these shooters.

Cost and twist rate are going to be 2 big driving factors. You want a bullet that costs about $1. What twist rate? Does it need to feed from a mag box? What is the minimum cartridge capacity? A CheyTac will shoot a bigger and longer bullet than a RUM or LM Imp. Do you need 2 bullets for different platforms and twists? That complicates R&D a lot.

I don't know about Hornady, but I don't think you will be seeing Berger getting to this anytime soon. They are still playing catch up and have shelved a lot of higher priority project until they do catch up.

Also, I notice Hornady has a 750 gr, 1 BC, 50 Cal bullet out. It costs $50 per box of 20 - $2.50 per ea. I'm guessing a 375 gr bullet is going to cost at least half that... at least.

I also notice that it has a large tip. The tip appears to be aluminum. As I mentioned before. Making long high BC with long aggressive ogives, with thin jacketed lead bullets becomes problematic because the thin jacket can not provide the structural integrity required to keep such a large mass of soft lead in shape. The large tip helps do that by shortening the OAL of the jacketed portion of the bullet and the ogive. This is not Bergers paradigm.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

The 300 gr offerings in .338 are on almost constant back order and that's not due to your average hunter. I, like all of you, know plenty of guys that pull their rifles out the week before season, fire off a few rounds at a paper plate stapled to a tree and go hunting. They may shoot a couple animals and then put the rifle away till next year. All told, they fired less than 10 rounds. I can't believe that's the market they'd want to build a new bullet for in a caliber that will never be as popular as a 7mm or 30. My point is that if you're gonna build a bullet for a caliber that relatively few people shoot I'd think you'd build it for the percentage of those shooters that shoot the most. In a perfect world it would be great if they could release two weights, maybe a 300 and a 375

Do you think Hornady could compete against the existing Nosler 300 AB which is a spitzer boattail bullet. Would a higher BC 300 gr bullet require a faster twist and would that shave down the potential market?

 

[Erik Kiser]

I think so. The AMax beats the Accubond in other calibers and weights. A high(for weight) bc 300 should still easily shoot in a 12 twist and then a 375 gr bullet approaching 900 bc would be great. It's just a fantasy but I think they'd sell both offerings

 

[Kiwi Greg]

If they were to make a 375 Amax or Berger that would be a great day

It needs to be around 350-375 grains & have a BC over 0.850

The biggest problem is it has to be able to be launched hard & still be frangible enough for adequate terminal performance at LR

It needs to be able to stabilise in 1-10,11.5 twist.

If it is made there will be a market for it.

The smaller 375s like the Rum & Lapua Improved provide startling performance with the current higher BC projectiles.

The fly in the ointment is recoil, no matter how good the brake is you still can't beat physics......

As has been previously mentioned, it wasn't that long ago & there wasn't many/any decent high BC 338 projectiles around..... we have to start somewhere....

 

[benchracer]

Do you think Hornady could compete against the existing Nosler 300 AB which is a spitzer boattail bullet. Would a higher BC 300 gr bullet require a faster twist and would that shave down the potential market?

From the shooting I have done so far, the 350 SMK works just fine in a 12 twist. The SMK is about .1.750" long. I have shot the Cutting Edge 300g MTH and it stabilized with no problem in a 12 twist. It is 1.723" long. Cutting Edge states that their 330 grain MTH will stabilize in a 12 twist. It is 1.864" long. Given that even a 330g mono metal bullet will stabilize in a 12 twist, I have a difficult time imagining a cup and core 300 grain bullet that would not stabilize in a 12 twist.

From what I can tell, a cup and core bullet would have to be well north of 350 grains before it would not stabilize in a 12 twist. I would think it would take a case at least equivalent in size to a .378 Weatherby before it would be possible to push a heavy enough cup and core bullet for twist to become an issue.

Existing 300 grain .375 bullets are so blunt, I don't think it would take a lot to significantly increase the bc. I would add that I believe it possible to go up to 325 grains or so, if that is necessary to get a decent bc, before it would start to have a negative impact on the smaller cased .375's.

After giving it more thought, I am seriously considering having a removable muzzle brake installed on my .375, mostly for shooting .350's from the bench. I don't think I would need it in the field. I also find myself wondering how effective a brake is on a .375. I suspect it will not be particularly efficient, but if it just takes the edge off recoil from the bench, I would expect that to be enough.

 

[Deleted member 46119]

A 375 375 might get me to build a 375. Probably one of Swamplord's designs as long as I can use a Mark V action.

 

[memtb]

First, a Happy New Year to all! I'm a new member and this is my first post. I came to Long Range Hunting Forum hoping to see if there was any interest in a .375 bullet with improved BC's. It was this very "thread" which caused me to join-up. I am impressed with the knowledge and civility shown in this conversation. Maybe with enough of us working together, we can get some progress on better bullets. I have been in contact with with Barnes numerous times over the last several years requesting a .375 TTSX at around .500 BC. While not a true ELR BC, still better than what is offered at present. I was recently told that if interested shooters would contact Barnes by email with this request that perhaps it would be considered at an upcoming discussion on new bullet introductions. While this would not satisfy the true ELR shooter,with enough interest shown in, let's say something around 300 grns. it would be "a foot in the door" for potentially more offerings. I will admit that this is a selfish request as I personally will probably not need or use something with a BC greater than .500, as I have nothing to push it with. I use a 8lb. 14oz.,.375AI for all of my hunting and a heavier "specialized" ELR rifle would not be practical for a 60+ year old to haul up and down the mountains. So, maybe we can deludge them with emails to get the "ball rolling". Again, most of you want >.500 BC. But it's a start! Thanks for indulging me on my "windy"post!!! memtb