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SOLD/EXPIRED 375 Allen Magnum repeater....
- Thread starter Fiftydriver
- Start date
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royinidaho
Well-Known Member
Unimaginable group - exellent shooting!
I`m now really confused, please help. Are the following calibers all one and the same: 375 Allen Magnum, 375-408 and 375 Cheytac?
Almost but nope.......
The 375 AM and 375 snipe-tac are close. (Improved over the std. Cheytac case)
The 375-408 and 375 Cheytac are most probably 408 Cheytac necked to 375.
Both the 375 AM and 375 Snipe-Tac were developed independently by two different rifle smiths with the similar thinkin'.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Just to add a bit more detail to what Roy has offered.
The 375 Chey Tac and 375-408 are identical. It was called the 375-408 before Chey Tac released their 375 Chey Tac cartridge.
Pretty much all of the 375 wildcats on the 408 case have a slightly improved shoulder angle compared to the parent case.
My 375 Allen Magnum has the shoulder relocated to increase case body length which increases case capacity compared to all the other wildcats based on this case. The shoulder angle is also steeper producing the highest case capacity in this class of chambering.
The 375 Chey Tac and 375-408 are identical. It was called the 375-408 before Chey Tac released their 375 Chey Tac cartridge.
Pretty much all of the 375 wildcats on the 408 case have a slightly improved shoulder angle compared to the parent case.
My 375 Allen Magnum has the shoulder relocated to increase case body length which increases case capacity compared to all the other wildcats based on this case. The shoulder angle is also steeper producing the highest case capacity in this class of chambering.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Predicting barrel life is extremely difficult to do accurately for many reasons, most of them in the hands of the owner and how they treat the rifle as far as cleaning and shooting.
Take a 375 AM and shoot it like a high volume 223 Rem Varmint rifle and you will get at least 500 rounds of accuracy out of it!!!
Take the same rifle as use it for its intended purpose, which is long range big game hunting, and the rifle would likely last a lifetime for even serious big game hunters.
Average barrel life will obviously be somewhere in between these two extremes. To be honest, I have yet to burn out a 375 AM barrel so I can not give you a solid number.
I have burnt out several 338 AM barrels and that one will average 800 to 1000 rounds down the bore with big game hunting accuracy. I would estimate a 375 AM would get you into the 1200 to 1400 round barrel life pretty easily if you take care of the rifle and do not over heat the bore.
Again, there are so many variables its hard to predict or should I say impossible to predict, its much more in the hands of the customer as to how long the barrels will last.
Hows that for dancing around the questions. Ya might think I was a politician!!! Maybe not!!!
Take a 375 AM and shoot it like a high volume 223 Rem Varmint rifle and you will get at least 500 rounds of accuracy out of it!!!
Take the same rifle as use it for its intended purpose, which is long range big game hunting, and the rifle would likely last a lifetime for even serious big game hunters.
Average barrel life will obviously be somewhere in between these two extremes. To be honest, I have yet to burn out a 375 AM barrel so I can not give you a solid number.
I have burnt out several 338 AM barrels and that one will average 800 to 1000 rounds down the bore with big game hunting accuracy. I would estimate a 375 AM would get you into the 1200 to 1400 round barrel life pretty easily if you take care of the rifle and do not over heat the bore.
Again, there are so many variables its hard to predict or should I say impossible to predict, its much more in the hands of the customer as to how long the barrels will last.
Hows that for dancing around the questions. Ya might think I was a politician!!! Maybe not!!!
Booney
Well-Known Member
Kirby I was surprised to see that you used a 34.5 barrel and not a 32 or even a 30 I thought with the bigger bore you did not need all that lenght. If you were to make it with a 32 or a 30 what would be the change in volocity. Thanks Kyle
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
You do not need an extra long barrel in the 375 AM but it does have the case volume where you will get decent velocity gains with a bit more barrel.
THis rifle was designed as a heavy rifle, no worries about trying to save weight. As such, its around 20 lbs. The main advantage of a longer barrel, it gets the muzzle blast farther away from you so its less intense to the shooter.
That is really the main advantage over the shorter barrel lengths. I would say velocity gains would be 75 to 80 fps or so. Not much but a bit.
THis rifle was designed as a heavy rifle, no worries about trying to save weight. As such, its around 20 lbs. The main advantage of a longer barrel, it gets the muzzle blast farther away from you so its less intense to the shooter.
That is really the main advantage over the shorter barrel lengths. I would say velocity gains would be 75 to 80 fps or so. Not much but a bit.
Casspir
Abit of history - the Gibbs 505, considered by many to be the best allround big game bolt rifle and popularized by Hemingway and co and other authors was necked down by Chey Tec to 408. Some thought it was not accurate enough and there was a shortage of good rounds. Chey Tac and then independently Dave Viers and Kirby Allen necked the case down to 375 using 350gr SMKs.
I have a Snipe Tac from Dave and its a great rifle. Comparing the cases side by side with Kirbys, the 375 AM is sligthly longer. The velocities that Dave and Kirby given show Dave s to be slightly slow and is loaded to 7-10 gr less depending on the maximums. Kirby recommends 141 gr.
As you see from my post on 5/17/09, I bought Kirbys 375 and am looking forward to arriving. Daves version shoot s such tight holes at 100 yds it is difficult to count the holes. At 510 yds it groups under 3" and Dave has achieved better. I can off hand shoot tins at 150 yds with it and the kick is less than my 30-378 or a 12 gauge shotgun 3.5". My 6mmBR will shoot less than 1" at 300yds but will drift 6" at 510 yds with zepher whereas the 375 stays true.
Booney, with a McGowan 30" the Snipe tac is lighter with a single shot and fairly easy to off hand shoot. I expect the 375AM will need to be shot from a bipod most of the time. Why two? Where we elk hunt we are requested to use 338 or 375 and for Africa 375 is the minimum. The 375 H+H is ok for smaller big five but the more Taylor Knockout value is needed so the 375 wildcats should fulfil that with some 8-9000 ft lb of energy. I also have GS solids for follow up and quartering.
Both Dave and Kirby are great gunsmiths and have answered my probing questions. Dave will answer by phone and Kirby by email.
As far as barrel life these are hunting rifles however I m always tempted to shoot more because its a fun round. I limit my self to 20 rounds clean and keep the barrel cool and shoot other rounds in between and then analyze the results with Exbal.
Good luck with a build and enjoy. Incredible round
Abit of history - the Gibbs 505, considered by many to be the best allround big game bolt rifle and popularized by Hemingway and co and other authors was necked down by Chey Tec to 408. Some thought it was not accurate enough and there was a shortage of good rounds. Chey Tac and then independently Dave Viers and Kirby Allen necked the case down to 375 using 350gr SMKs.
I have a Snipe Tac from Dave and its a great rifle. Comparing the cases side by side with Kirbys, the 375 AM is sligthly longer. The velocities that Dave and Kirby given show Dave s to be slightly slow and is loaded to 7-10 gr less depending on the maximums. Kirby recommends 141 gr.
As you see from my post on 5/17/09, I bought Kirbys 375 and am looking forward to arriving. Daves version shoot s such tight holes at 100 yds it is difficult to count the holes. At 510 yds it groups under 3" and Dave has achieved better. I can off hand shoot tins at 150 yds with it and the kick is less than my 30-378 or a 12 gauge shotgun 3.5". My 6mmBR will shoot less than 1" at 300yds but will drift 6" at 510 yds with zepher whereas the 375 stays true.
Booney, with a McGowan 30" the Snipe tac is lighter with a single shot and fairly easy to off hand shoot. I expect the 375AM will need to be shot from a bipod most of the time. Why two? Where we elk hunt we are requested to use 338 or 375 and for Africa 375 is the minimum. The 375 H+H is ok for smaller big five but the more Taylor Knockout value is needed so the 375 wildcats should fulfil that with some 8-9000 ft lb of energy. I also have GS solids for follow up and quartering.
Both Dave and Kirby are great gunsmiths and have answered my probing questions. Dave will answer by phone and Kirby by email.
As far as barrel life these are hunting rifles however I m always tempted to shoot more because its a fun round. I limit my self to 20 rounds clean and keep the barrel cool and shoot other rounds in between and then analyze the results with Exbal.
Good luck with a build and enjoy. Incredible round
Thank you LR 3.
Thank you for that information.
I`m from South Africa and in my lifetime used to hunt with a lot of big wildcats from 500 A Square downwards. No need for them really. A PH can carry a big stick, a normal hunter doesn`t need to. Under the influence of a good friend Peter Hathaway Capstick I bought in to the 375 H & H many years ago. Had it reamed out to a Weatherby and are very happy with it. Stick to 300gr and I hunt everything with it. Never lost an animal. I must agree, here in Africa, I`ve seen a lot of Hippo being taken with a 338 Win Mag (but were backed by a PH). The type of bullets and placements are more important than one of those too big too handle Magnums. Even Cape Buffalo with a 375 and good ammo is adequate (Not when it is a bad shot, then I like the back up of a PH).
However, long distance shooting changes a lot of things in terms of wind drift. This is were Kirbys 375 / or other big 338/ 375`s comes in. In the South African, Karoo or Kalahari desert, the wind is always blowing during winter hunting season. Gemsbuck or Eland and even the small Springbuck can then be taken at long distances.
I do enjoy the 375, it is only on the bench start of each season that I tend to loose a few tooth fillings. Just one point. You can hunt with a variety of cal here in Africa. It is only from Hippo or the big 5 that SA Nature Conservation kinda limit you to a .375 H &H.
My submission, stay with a normal carry rifle for hunting bushveld and or less than 300yrds/ m but a 375 Allen M on a bipod souds very interesting on those open plains game further 300 yards and the wind is howling! Kirbys 375 Allen remains an interesting cal, one that I`ll love to have.
Great website thanks LRH
Thank you for that information.
I`m from South Africa and in my lifetime used to hunt with a lot of big wildcats from 500 A Square downwards. No need for them really. A PH can carry a big stick, a normal hunter doesn`t need to. Under the influence of a good friend Peter Hathaway Capstick I bought in to the 375 H & H many years ago. Had it reamed out to a Weatherby and are very happy with it. Stick to 300gr and I hunt everything with it. Never lost an animal. I must agree, here in Africa, I`ve seen a lot of Hippo being taken with a 338 Win Mag (but were backed by a PH). The type of bullets and placements are more important than one of those too big too handle Magnums. Even Cape Buffalo with a 375 and good ammo is adequate (Not when it is a bad shot, then I like the back up of a PH).
However, long distance shooting changes a lot of things in terms of wind drift. This is were Kirbys 375 / or other big 338/ 375`s comes in. In the South African, Karoo or Kalahari desert, the wind is always blowing during winter hunting season. Gemsbuck or Eland and even the small Springbuck can then be taken at long distances.
I do enjoy the 375, it is only on the bench start of each season that I tend to loose a few tooth fillings. Just one point. You can hunt with a variety of cal here in Africa. It is only from Hippo or the big 5 that SA Nature Conservation kinda limit you to a .375 H &H.
My submission, stay with a normal carry rifle for hunting bushveld and or less than 300yrds/ m but a 375 Allen M on a bipod souds very interesting on those open plains game further 300 yards and the wind is howling! Kirbys 375 Allen remains an interesting cal, one that I`ll love to have.
Great website thanks LRH
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Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Just to throw another couple wrenches in the mix, I also have the 50 AT which is on the 408 CT case as well as a reamer for my 458 AT which I have yet to test yet, its also based on the 408 CT case.
Basically, they are all 375 AMs necked up to 458 or 510 cal.
They certainly are not ballistically up with the 338 or 375 but terminally, they would be extremely potent. I am not sure what the 458 would drive a 500 gr Barnes TSX bullet to but I would suspect nearly 2850-2900 fps but thats just an estimate. Compared to a 460 Wby loaded to 2600 fps, well, you can see my point, 300 yard range would certainly not be an issue.
I have only tested the 50 AT with the 700 gr FMJBT and the 750 gr A-Max. The 700 gr can be driven to 2600 fps, the 750 gr to just shy of 2500 fps.
Now a big game 50 cal bullet in the 600 grain range would likely be able to be drive to around 2800 fps.......
Recoil, in a 18-19 lb rifle with a good brake, bareable but not fun, in a 16 lb rifle, If your accustomed to a 450 Rigby, 460 Wby class recoil, I do not think you would have a problem but it would be on the severe side.
Other issue is rifle size, they would just be big, would have to use a BAT M or possibly the new Stiller receiver which would be the lightest weight option but as of yet unproven.
For a repeater, a Lawton M8000 with a chey tac DM system. Barrel length would not be an issue, anything over 26" would likely work great with bores of this size. I do not see getting a repeater to a finish weight much under 18 lbs but if you look at some of the classic stopping double rifles, that is not terribly unusual for rifle weight.
Just another wrench in there!!!
Basically, they are all 375 AMs necked up to 458 or 510 cal.
They certainly are not ballistically up with the 338 or 375 but terminally, they would be extremely potent. I am not sure what the 458 would drive a 500 gr Barnes TSX bullet to but I would suspect nearly 2850-2900 fps but thats just an estimate. Compared to a 460 Wby loaded to 2600 fps, well, you can see my point, 300 yard range would certainly not be an issue.
I have only tested the 50 AT with the 700 gr FMJBT and the 750 gr A-Max. The 700 gr can be driven to 2600 fps, the 750 gr to just shy of 2500 fps.
Now a big game 50 cal bullet in the 600 grain range would likely be able to be drive to around 2800 fps.......
Recoil, in a 18-19 lb rifle with a good brake, bareable but not fun, in a 16 lb rifle, If your accustomed to a 450 Rigby, 460 Wby class recoil, I do not think you would have a problem but it would be on the severe side.
Other issue is rifle size, they would just be big, would have to use a BAT M or possibly the new Stiller receiver which would be the lightest weight option but as of yet unproven.
For a repeater, a Lawton M8000 with a chey tac DM system. Barrel length would not be an issue, anything over 26" would likely work great with bores of this size. I do not see getting a repeater to a finish weight much under 18 lbs but if you look at some of the classic stopping double rifles, that is not terribly unusual for rifle weight.
Just another wrench in there!!!
RemingtonMagnum
Well-Known Member
that is gun is a stud! nice shootin at 1700+ yards!!!
Kirby, the 458 is an interesting "wrench"!! I m going out to Africa next year in July but would you have the time to put it together?
Casspir, it would be interesting to see more Africa LR discussion here but I ve not seen that much, partly I suspect because so much is done at short range.
I actually grew up hunting during my school vacations with my horse and dog in the E Tvl across from the KP. Our neighbors who ranched cattle (Afrikaaner) had a constatnt problem keeping lions and leopards and buffalo out of the area. I also had several friends who were PH in Botswana and and W Rhodesia. I have in my Africana library most of Capsticks books. I sometimes wondered if one did not need to divide some of the stories by2. However they were entertaining and his larconic humor was great.
Casspir, it would be interesting to see more Africa LR discussion here but I ve not seen that much, partly I suspect because so much is done at short range.
I actually grew up hunting during my school vacations with my horse and dog in the E Tvl across from the KP. Our neighbors who ranched cattle (Afrikaaner) had a constatnt problem keeping lions and leopards and buffalo out of the area. I also had several friends who were PH in Botswana and and W Rhodesia. I have in my Africana library most of Capsticks books. I sometimes wondered if one did not need to divide some of the stories by2. However they were entertaining and his larconic humor was great.
LR3
I was moved when I read your comment. It is a small world. Also read the book "HUNTER" by John Hunter, if you can ever lay your hands on it.
I used to farm 8 km from the Kruger National Park in a town called Hazyview. Hippos was a common thing and not to mention crocodiles. When we moved to George my children always asked if it was safe to swim in the rivers(no crocs or hippos? Very funny for them that an area can be so tamed) Also now and then we had to lock up the dogs as lions broke out of the Kruger. They were the first on the menu as the lions progress through "subarbia" . More than once did we take spoor/ trail with no rifles and a couple of dogs. If the dogs behave funny(lion scent) you knew it was time to get in the truck LOL. Hell, we were so irresponsible.
If ever in SA -please look me up. Maybe we can braai (Barbeque) some Rump between the Afrikaners (Longhorns) and Buffs. LoL.
I was moved when I read your comment. It is a small world. Also read the book "HUNTER" by John Hunter, if you can ever lay your hands on it.
I used to farm 8 km from the Kruger National Park in a town called Hazyview. Hippos was a common thing and not to mention crocodiles. When we moved to George my children always asked if it was safe to swim in the rivers(no crocs or hippos? Very funny for them that an area can be so tamed) Also now and then we had to lock up the dogs as lions broke out of the Kruger. They were the first on the menu as the lions progress through "subarbia" . More than once did we take spoor/ trail with no rifles and a couple of dogs. If the dogs behave funny(lion scent) you knew it was time to get in the truck LOL. Hell, we were so irresponsible.
If ever in SA -please look me up. Maybe we can braai (Barbeque) some Rump between the Afrikaners (Longhorns) and Buffs. LoL.
