Wolf76
Well-Known Member
Sorry about the poor quality download.
360 Buckhammer
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Sorry about the poor quality download.
comfisherman
Well-Known Member
I'll still put forward unless it's adopted by someone more than just Henry it won't survive anything more than niche regional sales.
The 350 legend had all manner of budget rifles from savage mossberg and ruger, and more than a few ar 15s were also available. Jury is still out on how it will do.
Even with all that, at the height of the panic you could buy rifles and ammo. So much so it was "on sale" with nary a box of anything else on the shelf. It was wild to walk into a store with 6.8 western, 3 flavors of 350 legend and nothing else in the store. I know guys who only bought one because it was there. Not exactly a convincing argument to the broader market.
This cartridge is essentially targeted at folks who need a specific cartridge length, want either a lever or single shot, in 35 caliber, and it to only initially be made by henry..... that cone gets small fast.
The 350 legend had all manner of budget rifles from savage mossberg and ruger, and more than a few ar 15s were also available. Jury is still out on how it will do.
Even with all that, at the height of the panic you could buy rifles and ammo. So much so it was "on sale" with nary a box of anything else on the shelf. It was wild to walk into a store with 6.8 western, 3 flavors of 350 legend and nothing else in the store. I know guys who only bought one because it was there. Not exactly a convincing argument to the broader market.
This cartridge is essentially targeted at folks who need a specific cartridge length, want either a lever or single shot, in 35 caliber, and it to only initially be made by henry..... that cone gets small fast.
Wolf76
Well-Known Member
I agree with what you're saying. This cartridge and some others are largely for straight wall regulated areas. Lever guns are fine, but a pump or bolt action would be better. You can chamber about anything in a break action.
A tube fed Remington 7400 would be great for this round. With all the 30 30 actions out there, this should be an easy conversion.
Nobody is picking this round because it's there first choice.
meatyrem
Well-Known Member
350 legend has more case capacity than 357 max. 1.6" compared to the legend at 1.7
The case size doesn't make much difference. The SAAMI OAL and pressure hold 357 Max back, but in most cases you can exceed those and get very close to 350 Legend performance from 357 Max. You can squeeze a little more out of 350 Legend too, but its SAAMI specs are much closer to actual maximums in my experience. Being a rimmed cartridge the 360 is likely going to be used in similar platforms to 357 Max, not semis and bolt actions.
That said, now that 350 Legend has been shoehorned into just about everything but pump actions 360 will be competing with it too. 350 legend has the straight wall, 35 caliber, moderate power market pretty well locked down.
The 357 Max stomps the 350 Legend across the board but doesn't have the flexibility for rifle platforms. The .357 Max in Encore 24" 1:14 tw barrel from MGM shoots 180gr Speer HC 2150 fps easily, heck the 200gr FTX in same velocity. The 350 Legend cannot handle heavier bullets like the 357 Max can. The prob with 357Max is most do not have proper twist for heavier bullets. The 140 Shock Hammer is a laser out if Max.
comfisherman
Well-Known Member
We can argue all day long about the merits of old and new, but the prevalence of platforms adopting a cartridge usually have the largest impact on a rounds success. Hornady has done better in the last decade in that regard, pushing out products usually kissing cousin close to other near identical cartridges but picked up by everybody. They shoe horn in nicely and fit in almost everything available, not usually needing special actions.
My concern with this one isn't the merit of the cartridge, it's the lack of suitable current production guns. We have the Italian Taylor Co, Henry, maybe rossi having a suitable platform. The argument is valid it would be great in a pump.... but when the last time you saw a new production pump.... Relying on Henry alone will handicap it, doesn't matter how much I love the companies ethos. Whole different conversation if ruger shocks us all next week with a platform and a commitment to putting it's vertically integrated might into backing it... for now it's gonna be a niche factory backed low number wildcat.
My concern with this one isn't the merit of the cartridge, it's the lack of suitable current production guns. We have the Italian Taylor Co, Henry, maybe rossi having a suitable platform. The argument is valid it would be great in a pump.... but when the last time you saw a new production pump.... Relying on Henry alone will handicap it, doesn't matter how much I love the companies ethos. Whole different conversation if ruger shocks us all next week with a platform and a commitment to putting it's vertically integrated might into backing it... for now it's gonna be a niche factory backed low number wildcat.
Just for my curiosity why are some States limiting Deer Hunting to Straight Wall Cartridges? I have always hunted in States where you could hunt with a .22 caliber centerfire and up. Are these the States that Banned Rifles and only used shotguns?
Thanks
Len
Len, I actually authored the straight wall for MI in 2009 but took 5 years to pass in 2014. The issue is agencies do not want "high" power rifle in shotgun zones. We can have hours of discussion on WTHELLO are they thinking.
In MI, it was based on MI allowed straight wall in handgun so it was simply allow same in rifle configuration. OMG!!!, you would think we were asking for 50BMG! Simply a political decision on their part not based on one shred of ballistics. Finally got it through because it was universally supported by legislative representatives and NRC. The intent of this rule was hunter sustainability first and foremost. I was seeing kids back away from 20 ga slug guns at bench and thought what if 44Mag rifle? Less recoil, cheaper, accurate, rifle versus shotgun all positive for new shooters. Which led to the legislative approach. Thankfully, I had a really good one for my region.
Bottleneck cartridges implies "high" power to DNR so low power cartridges like 30/30, 35Rem, 32Spec etc will never be allowed. Politics. MIDNR does not have sportsmen and sportswomen first, politics will be first.
Please don't try to understand their position with logic, you will just open up another bottle of bourbon.
Craig thanks for that explanation. It is something that in some states they allow Muzzle Loaders, but not a rifle, where most M/L ar more powerful than most rifle cartridges.
Politics and people that are in power that are ignorant on firearms should not make the Regulations!
meatyrem
Well-Known Member
Not exactly sure why but my guess would be none of them (like MB said) understand a darn thing about firearms.
My 460 rifle runs about same velocity as an .06 with 180gr. I would think we could stick with a short action type like 30-30, 35 rem and similar.
I'd say some of the handicaps for the legend is pressure is kept lower for the AR rifles.
But this buckhammer I would think. Tiger could chamber it in the same rifle the 357 mag is chambered in. I'd go for a m77 stainless 360 buckhammer 24" But I'd doubt it will happen so I'll have to order an mgm for encore
My 460 rifle runs about same velocity as an .06 with 180gr. I would think we could stick with a short action type like 30-30, 35 rem and similar.
I'd say some of the handicaps for the legend is pressure is kept lower for the AR rifles.
But this buckhammer I would think. Tiger could chamber it in the same rifle the 357 mag is chambered in. I'd go for a m77 stainless 360 buckhammer 24" But I'd doubt it will happen so I'll have to order an mgm for encore
dougduey
Well-Known Member
Muddy,
I had no idea you were one of the behind the straight wall cartridges for MI. Thank God you got that through legislation for it needed to happen. I learned how to deer hunt in the centerfire zone in a cedar swamp on the north shore of Hubbard Lake. That started my love affair with big game hunting. All I know was my group of buddies didn't want to hunt in the shotgun zones because we felt they just stunk, especially since we all had a 30-06 or 300 Win Mag. When your legislation got adopted, a bunch of my friends quickly bought up or leased some good deer hunting land close to the Detroit suburbs where we all lived. Everyone purchased a 450 Bushmaster and started putting a thumping on deer closer to home. It was a deal changer in many ways. Deer camp was still a big deal and we all went Up North every weekend from October through Thanksgiving to hunt, but now we all could easily sneak in a mid week hunt or two since now we had opportunities close to home. I have to thank you for all your hard work in making that come to fruition. It was a very big deal
I will tell you it was not easy at all. I took prob close to 14 days personal vacation time over first couple years to meet with 59th District Matt Lori and various committees up in Lansing 2 1/2 hr drive each way for a hour meeting. I feel so strongly about hunter sustainability for future of our hunting, it was worth it to me. I was lucky to work for a company that gave me leeway to do this sometimes on moments notice.
It turned into major impact for a lot of other states. I have sent packages of materials to other state groups trying to do same. I think maybe 6 states have something similar now, pleasant surprise for me.
I knew there would be positive impact on Pittman Robertson but not to level it resulted.
Once in a while you find an acorn.
It turned into major impact for a lot of other states. I have sent packages of materials to other state groups trying to do same. I think maybe 6 states have something similar now, pleasant surprise for me.
I knew there would be positive impact on Pittman Robertson but not to level it resulted.
Once in a while you find an acorn.
I will tell you a lot of people claim they authored this because of its success here and elsewhere. Interesting only my name and Matt Lori are on attendance sheets for all these committee meetings to to review and support the proposed House Bill. That's the telling documentation. I am proud of the impact and appreciate the hard work of Matt Lori and his admin assistant Susan Martin. They were instrumental in getting this to final.
