338 Edge vs 338 Allen Mag???

Interesting debate (though pretty one lopsided and rightly so), I have both. I have shot both until worn out once. I have taken big game with both. Based on my numbers the 338 Edge @ 2850 fps and the 338 AM @ 3300 fps both will shoot futher than most people can read the conditions effectively. I see most "effective range" debates as falure to focus on the core issue of "effective shooter range". That being said the 338 AM is the top fuel dragster of the long range shooting world. It will have an advantage at any range over the Edge no two ways about it. I liked my 338 AM alot, barrel life was a little short and reloading was more work than I really care for, but there is no way to get around the fact that 450 fps is a serious advantage. The crappier the wind conditions the more advantage it is.
 
This seems to me to be a "apples and oranges" kinda comparison. About the only thing these two cartridges have in common is caliber. Otherwise, i *think* the respective designers pursued slightly different goals or minimially used a different set of constraints.

Even Mr. Allen has a different .338 "magnum" type cartridge (.338 Allen Xpress) than his cavernous 338 Allen Magnum.

Data below from here:

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f23/allen-mag-shooters-group-18433/index39.html

338 Allen Magnum
408 Cheyenne Tactical parent case, necked down to 338, shoulder moved roughly 50 thou forward and fireformed to min body taper and sharper shoulder angle.
265 gr. AT RBBT(.920 bc) at 3500 fps in 32" barrel up to 350 gr. ULD RBBT at 3200 fps in 32" barrel.
Designed for heavy big game hunting at long range or standard big game hunting out to extreme range. Has been proven consistant and accurate out to 3008 yards by holding moa accurate out to this range and remaining super sonic in velocity with the 265 gr. AT RBBT.
Appropriate powders: H-50BMG(recommended), H-870, AA8700, US869, WC872, VV 20N29

338 Allen Xpress
338 Lapua Magnum parent case, fireformed to Allen Magnum shoulder and body configuration.
200 gr. (3350 to 3450 fps in 27-30" barrels) to 300 gr. SMK or ULD RBBT (2850 to 2950 fps in 27-30" barrels)
Designed for heavy game out to long range.
Appropriate powders: H4831, Rl-22, Rl-25, H-1000, Ramshot Magnum, Retumbo

I think Mr. Carlock's 338 Edge and Mr. Allen's 338 Allen Xpress would be a better comparison, but Mr. Carlock's comment above is spot-on. The more limiting factor is the user, not the equipment. I can buy the same cameras, film and darkroom equipment Ansel Adams used, but in no way can i use that gear to the same level as him. It just ain't gonna happen.
 
Interesting debate (though pretty one lopsided and rightly so), I have both. I have shot both until worn out once. I have taken big game with both. Based on my numbers the 338 Edge @ 2850 fps and the 338 AM @ 3300 fps both will shoot futher than most people can read the conditions effectively. I see most "effective range" debates as falure to focus on the core issue of "effective shooter range". That being said the 338 AM is the top fuel dragster of the long range shooting world. It will have an advantage at any range over the Edge no two ways about it. I liked my 338 AM alot, barrel life was a little short and reloading was more work than I really care for, but there is no way to get around the fact that 450 fps is a serious advantage. The crappier the wind conditions the more advantage it is.

Shawn, Maybe I'm a little thick, but I see more of a comparison in this thread vs a debate. Any cartridge is what it is, nothing more or nothing less. For the most part it all boils down to velocity and BC. The way I see it, the biggest four factors in assessing "effective" range are the cartridge which basically boils down to capacity, the bullet's BC and construction, the rifle's precision capability and the the shooter's proficiency.

Mark
 
Thanks to everyone for the info. I had no idea about the differences when I posted the question. Both seem to be amazing rounds, within their own relms. I cant wait to put the money together and order one or both.
 
I am building an Edge right now. I thought about the AM but the Edge will already outperform my Swarovski rangefinder so I didn't see the point. It is also very difficult to judge what the wind is doing 2K yards away. The Edge will really shine with the new Berger 300 grain bullet if the BC is really what they say.
 
First off, the comparision is very hard to make between these two. They both shoot a 338 cal bullet, thats where the similiarities end.

The 338 Edge, which Shawn deserves full credit for as he has worked with this round more then anyone else I know is a great round. For a big game rifle that is portable and offers long range performance it is amoung a very few that I would recommend.

Its relatively easy on barrels and rifles as a whole. Brass is affordable and the round is easy to load for, just one of those rounds that is easy to get to shoot. While the performance does not seem to be "sexy", its really very near the top of the heap when it comes to conventional 338 magnum performance. THe list of advantages is long and complaints on the Edge very short.

For a user friendly, high performance long range rifle very hard to beat.

Now for the 338 Allen Magnum. As Shawn has stated, its the top fuel dragster of the group. You will be burning 145-150 grains of powder per shot in a rifle that will be at least 15 lbs ready to hunt with, even for single shots. Repeaters are much larger and much heavier and more expensive.

As far as reloading, no different at all then any other 338 cal magnum as I supply fully formed correct headstamped cases so no fireforming is needed. Just costs more for the brass. Finding that "best" accuracy load for the 338 AM will likely be a bit more challanging then for the Edge but in all the 338 AMs I have built, one load has produced 1/2 moa accuracy right off the bat. That being 142 gr H-50BMG under the 300 gr SMK. It is not an overly hot load but will push 3300 fps in a 33" barrel length.

If shear performance is your goal or your in areas where wind is a REAL concern, the 338 AM is a great choice and will make hits at longer range easier then with any of the smaller 338 magnums. Is it the best choice for every situation, certainly not. I buld far more 338 Edge rifles then 338 Allen Magnum rifles. This is simply because the Edge is better for more situations then the 338 Allen Magnum.

So what will the 338 Allen Magnum do that the Edge will not, extend your range. Who really needs a range longer then what the Edge offers, no one really but with some of the newer aluminum tipped bullets, the 338 AM WILL offer super sonic velocity past 3000 yards. Something that no other shoulder fired, conventional rifle will offer to my knowledge. I have personally fired three shot groups at 3010 yards that measured 3/4 moa in ideal conditions out of a 19 lb Xtreme Heavy Sporter of mine. That is something no lesser 338 magnum will offer. Still, that is specialized work and not something everyone needs. The limited number of guys that even have 3000 yards to shoot out to shows how limited this purpose really is.

When used properly in their best applications and roles, there are no better rounds then the Edge and Allen Magnum but these roles tend to be much different. Enough so that they really can not be compared head to head because its to easy to spin the numbers in favor of shear performance when that is hardly what should be under consideration when choosing the correct round.

I had dozens of customers that I would actually talk out of the 338 AM because even though they thought they wanted one. Once I found out what they really wanted in a new rifle, it was not the 338 Allen Magnum which would serve them best.

This is the main reason I came up with the 338 Allen Xpress. As always, I wanted a bit more then what was already out there. Now certainly there has been a 338 Lapua Improved for some time. My design is a bit different in design but nearly identical in performance.

This round and the Edge can be placed in the same performance class. The Edge will get you 2850 fps in a 30" pipe with the 300 gr SMK, the 338 AX will get you 2950 fps. Some of my customers are pushing the AX to 3000 fps. Many wanted the 338 AM but were a bit spooked by its relatively short barrel life so that is another reason for the release of the 338 AX.

Yes, the 338 AM is hard on barrels but for its intended use, its got plenty of barrel life for even 10 years worth of long range hunting for even the most serious hunter. I will generally not recommend a 338 AM for someone that is getting a first long range rifle and strongly recommend that if someone wants to "plink" or practice or shoot groups at long range, to get something a bit easier on barrels. Once they have that type of rifle, then the 338 AM can be used for their specialty work at long range.

It would be hard to say any of these three would be more accurate then the others. That would greatly depend on the quality of the ammo used, the shooters ability and the quality of the rifle. SInce only Shawn and I have a 338 Allen Magnum reamer, I believe the rifle quality would not be an issue.

Simply put, these two rounds are far more different then similiar so they really can not be compared. They design goals are completely different. Both great rounds.
 
Thanks Mr.s Allen and Carlock for such well-thought-out responses.

Personally, i appreciate the professionalism and non-competitive, mutual endorsements of these two top-shelf firearm artisans. There are none of the juvenile remarks all too frequently observed in the marketplace today.

And when/if i get the 'scratch' together, i'd love to be ordering something from both!!!
 
1+ with fmajor. Thanks for the great info and explanations of the different rounds. Looks like I need a bigger piggy-bank so I can get one of each.
Thanks everyone.
 
That is simply because we are friends above work. I know Shawn well, have hunted with him and shot with him. I have shot his rifles and he has shot mine. We both know and respect each other and each others work. There is plenty of work out there for all of us smiths so no need for competition between friends.

In the end, we are pretty much the same and anyone that has delt with either of us knows this to be true, we just love to hunt, love to shoot and love to make precision rifles. Other then the building rifles part, we are the same as everyone else here on LRH. Perhaps the only difference is that we stay up at night staring at the ceiling thinking of better ways to get out another 500 yards or get that 1K group tightened up a bit.

We both love sharing our ideas with all of you just as we love to hear about eveyone elses ideas as well. We are both very lucky, love what we do and have the best customers in the world which I am sure I can speak for Shawn as well in saying we see our customers as personal friends much more then a means to get a paycheck.
 
"Perhaps the only difference is that we stay up at night staring at the ceiling thinking of better ways to get out another 500 yards or get that 1K group tightened up a bit."

That's the big difference!!

It's now time for the similar thinking bullet maker to step up to the plate!
 
Perhaps the only difference is that we stay up at night staring at the ceiling thinking of better ways to get out another 500 yards or get that 1K group tightened up a bit.

Most of us stay up all night staring at the ceiling thinking of how to get another $500 or $1000 dallors to have a real rifle built. : )






J. Sibble
 
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