Varminator 911
Well-Known Member
Sounds similar to a Weatherby freebore to me.
338 Edge + P now available from Defensive Edge
- Thread starter Shawn Carlock
- Start date
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Señor Carlock,
that's some excellent work!
Good for you!
Congratulations!
Nice to know they're now available.
Since a very long time ago I wanted one rifle built by Mr. Allen and one by you... That
has not happened yet but I'm keeping the faith!!! Amen!
that's some excellent work!
Good for you!
Congratulations!
Nice to know they're now available.
Since a very long time ago I wanted one rifle built by Mr. Allen and one by you... That
has not happened yet but I'm keeping the faith!!! Amen!
Last edited:
peashooter
Well-Known Member
Congrats Shawn,
Sounds very interesting. I was able to stretch the legs of a 338 Edge DE Long Range Hunter Saturday. My first experience at 1000. What a gun! The +P would be awesome. I will follow the developments here as I am intrigued with this. God Bless
Sounds very interesting. I was able to stretch the legs of a 338 Edge DE Long Range Hunter Saturday. My first experience at 1000. What a gun! The +P would be awesome. I will follow the developments here as I am intrigued with this. God Bless
Shawn Carlock
Sponsor
OK, it has no freebore, so it is nothing like a WBY. The pressure is the same as a standard Edge so case life is the same. As far as applying the +P to other calibers the 7 WSM will propably still be a repeater but I am not positive.
jmden
Well-Known Member
I knew he wouldn't be able to resist the Weatherby and case life comments... That's not the last time you'll be explaining that, Shawn. 
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Shawn,
I have been testing my Hybrid throat in my rifles for the same amount of time you have in your +P. The two designs are so similiar we should have just done them together and saved each other alot of time and money!!!
I have tested this design in many conventional chamberings as well as in my 270 Allen Magnum, 7mm Allen Magnum, 300 Allen Xpress, 338 Allen Xpress and 338 Allen Magnum, extensively enough to know several things about this type of throat design. My Hybrid throat design does not increase OAL of the ammo at all so its better suited for conventional length repeating rifle designs which may be why your getting the 25 to 50 fps more velocity then my testing has shown in my wildcats due to the larger case capacity increase seating the bullets out very long, but other then that its very similiar.
1. It works for velocity performance and accuracy. In every chambering listed above this throat design offered at least 150 fps in velocity performance gains. In every case it also required 5 to 12 grains more powder to get these velocity increases.
2. Accuracy improves, at least initially, especially on the thin jacketed berger bullets. Now that we have the stouter Gen2 bergers this is really a moot point as I am driving them to 3500 fps with fine consistancy and accuracy out to 2000 yards.
3. The J4 jacketed bullets can be driven to higher velocities then a conventional throat because of the much lower engraving force needed to start the bullets down the bore and also less stress on the jacket/core bond.
4. Barrel life is reduced noticably. Unfortunately, its not all good news. I am testing wildcats that are a bit more extreme then the Edge so this is likely why I am seeing these results sooner they your reporting but you WILL see them. In my testing, the best barrel life came with my 338 Allen Xpress(Improved Lapua design) which would make sense it has the highest expansion ratio of all the rounds listed. Still, I have had one rifle that let loose with accuracy in as few as 500 rounds. Now thats with a 300 gr SMK loaded to around 3100 fps.
In the 7mm Allen Magnum and 338 Allen Magnum, barrel life is DRAMATICALLY dependant on how the rifles are shot. The 7mm AM would drive the 200 gr ULD RBBT to 3450 fps EASILY in a 30" barrel length. With its .880 BC, its pretty magical at long range. Still when it comes to an end, its like a switch was flicked and the barrel is done, bullets simply come apart. The 338 AM in a 32" barrel length would drive the 300 gr SMK to 3550 fps with the hybrid throat but again, after a few hundred rounds, it was pretty much over. If you want to test alot of loads you will burn up a throat very quickly. In as few as 300 rounds in some cases. If you heat the barrel up and keep shooting, same thing. In comparision, my personal 7mm AM has nearly 800 rounds down the barrel with a conventional throat in a standard Lilja 6 groove barrel and its still shooting well under 3/4 moa at 1000 yards. It will not shoot the berger or J4 based bullets anymore but still shoots the Accubonds into very tight groups at nearly 3500 fps with the 160 gr Accubond. Not to bad for a 26" barrel length and 3.600" OAL in the ammo.
When accuracy drops off its like going over a cliff as well, once you hit that point its all over from what I have seen. You may well get +800 rounds with the Edge, maybe even 1000 rounds but I would wager thats about it retaining fine accuracy. This is just based off what I have seen in all of my testing with my hybrid throat design. That is certainly not a bad thing, plenty of barrel life for a serious long range weapon for big game hunting.
Because of this, I have stopped offering it to my customers as an option simply because an extra 100-150 fps is not worth loosing 35 to 50% of your barrel life for the most part, especially now that Berger has the 338 bullets working great for the big guns and other bullets in different calibers also performing GREAT at my wildcats level of velocities. They are really stepping up on their bullet designs to help us out feeding the big guns.
When we both started designing these throat designs, I think we both wanted to get the Berger bullets up and running. They could not handle the velocity we wanted to and could drive them to which is what made both of us design out new throat designs.
I was a little surpised to hear you say your throat design would not work in all chamberings. In fact I am surpised you said your +P design would not work on a standard 338 RUM. Not sure why. I have tested my Hybrid on the RUM and Lapua and it works just as well as it did on my 338 AX. That rifle drove the 300 gr SMK to 2910 fps in a 30" barrel length and used a 3.750" OAL to get it with decent case life. No idea what that rifle is doing now, have not heard anything from the customer so I assume its still shooting well. Maybe its just sitting in a gun safe somewhere!!
One thing I have found is that these throat designs are greatly dependant on the barrels they are used in. Not a good idea to use button pulled barrels, especially the ones known to run on the softer side. Lilja barrels had the shortest accuracy life with the other button pulled barrels right behind them.
The hardest cut rifled barrels offered measureably longer barrel life. I think you said you had a Krieger barrel you were testing, that may be why you are getting the good barrel life. In my testing however, even the Krieger and Rock barrels will have a much shorter barrel life then they would with a conventional throat design. Yes they get more performance but its not a free lunch.
Anyway, good to hear your pushing the envelope. I may have to try my hybrid throat design on my 338 Raptor and see if I can get those Gen 2 Berger 300 grs ripping out at 3250 fps in a 30" barrel length with a 3.900" OAL. I think it would be possible but not sure its worth it. I think I would prefer the longer barrel life and would be plenty happy with 3125 fps!!
I think there is great promise in these throat designs but I also believe the most potential lies in the smaller capacity chamberings set up just as you discribe, in single shot platforms where the ability to dump the extra powder into the cases with similiar chamber pressures will give them a big boost in ballistic performance.
Unfortunately, in the larger, extreme performance rounds, the benefits do not last as long and therefore these throat designs are not as beneficial as I would have hoped, at least not long term.
Your Edge is right on the boarderline in my opinion. High performance but still relatively high expansion ratio. It and the Lapua are in my opinion the very tops of getting the good results and acceptable barrel life. Much more capacity then these or much lower in expansion ratio and it just does not pay.
With that said, I still have several 7mm AMs, 300 AX, 338 AX and 338 AM rifles out there in the field that I am getting very positive results back on. It will not last forever though and I have informed each of my customers about my test results. Maybe thats why they have lasted well, they are shot only for special occasions and for big game hunting.
I have had several 7mm AM and 338 AX rifles come back for converting back to my standard throat design so thats why I stopped offering the option of the Hybrid throat.
Anyway, good luck, keep us posted to your results. Will be interested to hear what round count you get to before accuracy takes a dive. Good testing and keep pushing the envelope, doing anything else would just be boring!!!
I have been testing my Hybrid throat in my rifles for the same amount of time you have in your +P. The two designs are so similiar we should have just done them together and saved each other alot of time and money!!!
I have tested this design in many conventional chamberings as well as in my 270 Allen Magnum, 7mm Allen Magnum, 300 Allen Xpress, 338 Allen Xpress and 338 Allen Magnum, extensively enough to know several things about this type of throat design. My Hybrid throat design does not increase OAL of the ammo at all so its better suited for conventional length repeating rifle designs which may be why your getting the 25 to 50 fps more velocity then my testing has shown in my wildcats due to the larger case capacity increase seating the bullets out very long, but other then that its very similiar.
1. It works for velocity performance and accuracy. In every chambering listed above this throat design offered at least 150 fps in velocity performance gains. In every case it also required 5 to 12 grains more powder to get these velocity increases.
2. Accuracy improves, at least initially, especially on the thin jacketed berger bullets. Now that we have the stouter Gen2 bergers this is really a moot point as I am driving them to 3500 fps with fine consistancy and accuracy out to 2000 yards.
3. The J4 jacketed bullets can be driven to higher velocities then a conventional throat because of the much lower engraving force needed to start the bullets down the bore and also less stress on the jacket/core bond.
4. Barrel life is reduced noticably. Unfortunately, its not all good news. I am testing wildcats that are a bit more extreme then the Edge so this is likely why I am seeing these results sooner they your reporting but you WILL see them. In my testing, the best barrel life came with my 338 Allen Xpress(Improved Lapua design) which would make sense it has the highest expansion ratio of all the rounds listed. Still, I have had one rifle that let loose with accuracy in as few as 500 rounds. Now thats with a 300 gr SMK loaded to around 3100 fps.
In the 7mm Allen Magnum and 338 Allen Magnum, barrel life is DRAMATICALLY dependant on how the rifles are shot. The 7mm AM would drive the 200 gr ULD RBBT to 3450 fps EASILY in a 30" barrel length. With its .880 BC, its pretty magical at long range. Still when it comes to an end, its like a switch was flicked and the barrel is done, bullets simply come apart. The 338 AM in a 32" barrel length would drive the 300 gr SMK to 3550 fps with the hybrid throat but again, after a few hundred rounds, it was pretty much over. If you want to test alot of loads you will burn up a throat very quickly. In as few as 300 rounds in some cases. If you heat the barrel up and keep shooting, same thing. In comparision, my personal 7mm AM has nearly 800 rounds down the barrel with a conventional throat in a standard Lilja 6 groove barrel and its still shooting well under 3/4 moa at 1000 yards. It will not shoot the berger or J4 based bullets anymore but still shoots the Accubonds into very tight groups at nearly 3500 fps with the 160 gr Accubond. Not to bad for a 26" barrel length and 3.600" OAL in the ammo.
When accuracy drops off its like going over a cliff as well, once you hit that point its all over from what I have seen. You may well get +800 rounds with the Edge, maybe even 1000 rounds but I would wager thats about it retaining fine accuracy. This is just based off what I have seen in all of my testing with my hybrid throat design. That is certainly not a bad thing, plenty of barrel life for a serious long range weapon for big game hunting.
Because of this, I have stopped offering it to my customers as an option simply because an extra 100-150 fps is not worth loosing 35 to 50% of your barrel life for the most part, especially now that Berger has the 338 bullets working great for the big guns and other bullets in different calibers also performing GREAT at my wildcats level of velocities. They are really stepping up on their bullet designs to help us out feeding the big guns.
When we both started designing these throat designs, I think we both wanted to get the Berger bullets up and running. They could not handle the velocity we wanted to and could drive them to which is what made both of us design out new throat designs.
I was a little surpised to hear you say your throat design would not work in all chamberings. In fact I am surpised you said your +P design would not work on a standard 338 RUM. Not sure why. I have tested my Hybrid on the RUM and Lapua and it works just as well as it did on my 338 AX. That rifle drove the 300 gr SMK to 2910 fps in a 30" barrel length and used a 3.750" OAL to get it with decent case life. No idea what that rifle is doing now, have not heard anything from the customer so I assume its still shooting well. Maybe its just sitting in a gun safe somewhere!!
One thing I have found is that these throat designs are greatly dependant on the barrels they are used in. Not a good idea to use button pulled barrels, especially the ones known to run on the softer side. Lilja barrels had the shortest accuracy life with the other button pulled barrels right behind them.
The hardest cut rifled barrels offered measureably longer barrel life. I think you said you had a Krieger barrel you were testing, that may be why you are getting the good barrel life. In my testing however, even the Krieger and Rock barrels will have a much shorter barrel life then they would with a conventional throat design. Yes they get more performance but its not a free lunch.
Anyway, good to hear your pushing the envelope. I may have to try my hybrid throat design on my 338 Raptor and see if I can get those Gen 2 Berger 300 grs ripping out at 3250 fps in a 30" barrel length with a 3.900" OAL. I think it would be possible but not sure its worth it. I think I would prefer the longer barrel life and would be plenty happy with 3125 fps!!
I think there is great promise in these throat designs but I also believe the most potential lies in the smaller capacity chamberings set up just as you discribe, in single shot platforms where the ability to dump the extra powder into the cases with similiar chamber pressures will give them a big boost in ballistic performance.
Unfortunately, in the larger, extreme performance rounds, the benefits do not last as long and therefore these throat designs are not as beneficial as I would have hoped, at least not long term.
Your Edge is right on the boarderline in my opinion. High performance but still relatively high expansion ratio. It and the Lapua are in my opinion the very tops of getting the good results and acceptable barrel life. Much more capacity then these or much lower in expansion ratio and it just does not pay.
With that said, I still have several 7mm AMs, 300 AX, 338 AX and 338 AM rifles out there in the field that I am getting very positive results back on. It will not last forever though and I have informed each of my customers about my test results. Maybe thats why they have lasted well, they are shot only for special occasions and for big game hunting.
I have had several 7mm AM and 338 AX rifles come back for converting back to my standard throat design so thats why I stopped offering the option of the Hybrid throat.
Anyway, good luck, keep us posted to your results. Will be interested to hear what round count you get to before accuracy takes a dive. Good testing and keep pushing the envelope, doing anything else would just be boring!!!
Shawn Carlock
Sponsor
Interesting notes Kirby, thanks. Our round count rifle is on a Hart 1-10 barrel we will see how it goes. Right now it is getting close to 800 rounds and still shooting under .5 MOA. I could live with 800 but was hoping for 1000 time will tell.
The reason I said some rounds might not benefit from the +P is that the required capacity vs the powder you want to use may not work well together. In running the numbers some of the rounds we looked at you can simply add more powder and be happy on other you had to change powders. In the Edge for example we couldn't get up to pressure without seating the bullet out futher to make room for the additional H1000. We could have changed powders but couldn't find a "fit" we liked that way. On the other hand rounds like the 260 Rem seem like they will work at std length and the current powders we are using. Thanks again for the reply and stay in touch.
The reason I said some rounds might not benefit from the +P is that the required capacity vs the powder you want to use may not work well together. In running the numbers some of the rounds we looked at you can simply add more powder and be happy on other you had to change powders. In the Edge for example we couldn't get up to pressure without seating the bullet out futher to make room for the additional H1000. We could have changed powders but couldn't find a "fit" we liked that way. On the other hand rounds like the 260 Rem seem like they will work at std length and the current powders we are using. Thanks again for the reply and stay in touch.
Shawn Carlock
Sponsor
We are only doing complete builds right now due to back log, sorry.
rscott5028
Well-Known Member
Shawn and Kirby,
It's great to have wildcatters like you guys to pave the way for the masses.
I particularly appreciate Kirby's reality check. Although, I often must raise an eyebrow when people complain about 6.5x284 barrel life. To wit I say that there are many fine cartridges to choose from and they are all compromises.
The trick is to find the one that best suits your application. I just can't see getting big velocity gains without losing something such as some barrel life. But, if you need that extra "edge", then it's nice to know that it's attainable.
The question I would pose to both of you since you already promote potent cartridges that you've developed is whether you believe your modified throat designs might be used to maintain standard velocities with extended barrel life?
Thanks and congrats to you both,
Richard
It's great to have wildcatters like you guys to pave the way for the masses.
I particularly appreciate Kirby's reality check. Although, I often must raise an eyebrow when people complain about 6.5x284 barrel life. To wit I say that there are many fine cartridges to choose from and they are all compromises.
The trick is to find the one that best suits your application. I just can't see getting big velocity gains without losing something such as some barrel life. But, if you need that extra "edge", then it's nice to know that it's attainable.
The question I would pose to both of you since you already promote potent cartridges that you've developed is whether you believe your modified throat designs might be used to maintain standard velocities with extended barrel life?
Thanks and congrats to you both,
Richard
Good
Well-Known Member
Great thread! I think I figured out how to get Kirby and Shawn excited! All you gotta do is talk about throat designs and stuff like that and pow!
