Autorotate
Well-Known Member
Do these CE bullets need to be near the lands? Assuming a repeater COAL, but can you confirm?
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.338 calibers
- Thread starter switchbackkd
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Do these CE bullets need to be near the lands? Assuming a repeater COAL, but can you confirm?
SHRTSHTR
Well-Known Member
I do not know about the 225's but I just shot some D65 252's yesterday for the 1st time.
I was told by Dan at CE that I should start at .025 from bore rider. I was told to work up a load just until I saw slight ejector mark on Lapua case head. He said that the 252's like to be run on the hot side and should get about 300fps faster than 300gn SMK's. 100 grains Retumbo and Fed 215's yield 2,955 fps out of my 338 LAI with 300gn SMK's.
We started started at 101gns Retumbo and worked up to 105 grains. I thought be would see some pressure signs at 105 grains but did not. Plan on loading two at 105, 106 and 107 grains and see where my max load is with these. 105 grains yielded 3,274 fps with not pressure signs at all. I feel I am getting close to max but not sure.
We shot these at 300 yards and my 1st two shots at 3005 fps were very close to where my 300 smk's were just shooting. Same elevation impacts. 105 grains were about 6 inches higher. My last two shots with 105 grains Retumbo were just under 1 inch.
We need to find our max load and then work on accuracy but they are showing promise.
I was told by Dan at CE that I should start at .025 from bore rider. I was told to work up a load just until I saw slight ejector mark on Lapua case head. He said that the 252's like to be run on the hot side and should get about 300fps faster than 300gn SMK's. 100 grains Retumbo and Fed 215's yield 2,955 fps out of my 338 LAI with 300gn SMK's.
We started started at 101gns Retumbo and worked up to 105 grains. I thought be would see some pressure signs at 105 grains but did not. Plan on loading two at 105, 106 and 107 grains and see where my max load is with these. 105 grains yielded 3,274 fps with not pressure signs at all. I feel I am getting close to max but not sure.
We shot these at 300 yards and my 1st two shots at 3005 fps were very close to where my 300 smk's were just shooting. Same elevation impacts. 105 grains were about 6 inches higher. My last two shots with 105 grains Retumbo were just under 1 inch.
We need to find our max load and then work on accuracy but they are showing promise.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Autorotate,
The 338 Raptor is a work in progress at this time, the original design IS based on the 338 Excalibur case made by Jamison International. A good case, decently strong, decent quality, very usible, unfortunatly, Jamsion is currently a dead stick as a company.
I have only tested the 338 Raptor in one rifle and that was one of my 30" barreled Raptor LRSS rifles based on my APS Raptor receiver.
The actual case design may suprise you. In my opinion, the Excalibur case is FAR to square for use with high pressure loads and still maintain good extraction properties. As such, I slightly increased the case body taper. To increase case capacity, I had to do something other then just sharpen the shoulder angle. As such, I shortened the neck significantly and increased the body length. Relocating the shoulder on the long necked 338 Excalibur case makes for a significant increase in case capacity over the parent case. The increased body taper allows for higher working pressures to be used with no issues with sticky extraction.
In all honesty, I am AMAZED that you can Neck Size only with your Excalibur and get the velocity your getting and still being able to extract the cases. As you correctly mentioned, the Excalibur parent case has very little body taper, in fact, much less then what I have found to be functionally correct for this diameter and length of a case.
Shooting the 300 gr Berger Hybrid I was able to get 6 firings per case with an average muzzle velocity of 3165 fps. With the 300 gr SMK, with the same minimum 6 firings per case the 338 Raptor averaged 3143 fps. Both of these loads had ES of less then 15 fps for 10 shots and accuracy at 1000 yards was easily in the 1/2 moa range for three shots fired off Harris bipod and rear bag from prone position.
Please keep in mind that this test rifle was set up with a very short throat for an OAL of 3.900" with the SMK (The Berger is longer by around 0.100") simply to test the rounds performance when it would be used as a repeater using the Seekins DM system. At this length the SMK is seated VERY deep into the case.
I have not yet tested the 338 Raptor with a longer throat design but I have tested my 300 Raptor with both throat lengths and it gained 80 to 100 fps potential with the longer throat and increased powder capacity depending on what bullet weight was used (heavier bullets had largest increase). Obviously the lower expansion ratio 30 cal bore will have more of an advantage then the better breathing larger bored 338 caliber but I am predicting that with a long throat design(single shot Only) it would not be unrealistic to see 3200 fps with the 300 gr bullet weights.
I do not use pressure barrels. The cost of this set up or the added cost to pay someone to pressure test ammo would simply add to the cost of the rifles, perhaps thats why some rifles in this class cost 20 to 40% more then others and offer nothing extra in quality or performance, often times less but they can say its all been pressure tested.......
Every rifle that leaves my shop is function tested on the range with ammo taylor made to each specific rifle. My accuracy loads are far from red line loads and I generally only post my accuracy load levels. MANY of my customers get far more performance out of my wildcats then I do simply because they push them a bit harder but give up some case life. FOr example, my 338 Allen Magnum will get you 3300-3325 fps with a 300 gr SMK with +8 firings per case...... Many of my customers push the 300 gr bullets to 3400 fps with 4-5 firings per case.
Now to put that into perspective, you can load a 338 Edge to 2900 fps with conventional throat length with a 300 gr SMK in a 30" barrel length and you will get 5-6 firings with Rem brass on average.
I do not red line my wildcats as some would have you believe. I do not care about bragging rights, my wildcats stand on their own and every rifle I have shipped WILL easily meet the velocity goals I have stated for each of my wildcats. This is something that CAN NOT be said for many other high performance semi-custom commerical rounds without using special barrel twists, specially undersized bullets, special bullet lubrication. I use standard powders, standard off the shelf bullets and offer the load data I use to test my customers rifles. I prove their rifles not only meet my 1/2 moa accuracy potential requirement (AT LONG RANGE, 800-1200 yards), but also that their rifles meet my velocity predictions for each wildcat.
I designed my wildcats to produce the velocity potential I wanted with comfortable pressures, great accuracy, great consistancy and great functional performance. This is by using large case capacities, longer barrels and proper powder choices, nothing special, nothing HIGH-TECH, just old school high performance designs.
Again, each of my rifles are proven more then safe with custom loads before they ship, that way I do not have customers calling me saying, I CAN NOT GET THE VELOCITY YOU STATED when we were talking about ordering a rifle.......
The 338 Raptor is a work in progress at this time, the original design IS based on the 338 Excalibur case made by Jamison International. A good case, decently strong, decent quality, very usible, unfortunatly, Jamsion is currently a dead stick as a company.
I have only tested the 338 Raptor in one rifle and that was one of my 30" barreled Raptor LRSS rifles based on my APS Raptor receiver.
The actual case design may suprise you. In my opinion, the Excalibur case is FAR to square for use with high pressure loads and still maintain good extraction properties. As such, I slightly increased the case body taper. To increase case capacity, I had to do something other then just sharpen the shoulder angle. As such, I shortened the neck significantly and increased the body length. Relocating the shoulder on the long necked 338 Excalibur case makes for a significant increase in case capacity over the parent case. The increased body taper allows for higher working pressures to be used with no issues with sticky extraction.
In all honesty, I am AMAZED that you can Neck Size only with your Excalibur and get the velocity your getting and still being able to extract the cases. As you correctly mentioned, the Excalibur parent case has very little body taper, in fact, much less then what I have found to be functionally correct for this diameter and length of a case.
Shooting the 300 gr Berger Hybrid I was able to get 6 firings per case with an average muzzle velocity of 3165 fps. With the 300 gr SMK, with the same minimum 6 firings per case the 338 Raptor averaged 3143 fps. Both of these loads had ES of less then 15 fps for 10 shots and accuracy at 1000 yards was easily in the 1/2 moa range for three shots fired off Harris bipod and rear bag from prone position.
Please keep in mind that this test rifle was set up with a very short throat for an OAL of 3.900" with the SMK (The Berger is longer by around 0.100") simply to test the rounds performance when it would be used as a repeater using the Seekins DM system. At this length the SMK is seated VERY deep into the case.
I have not yet tested the 338 Raptor with a longer throat design but I have tested my 300 Raptor with both throat lengths and it gained 80 to 100 fps potential with the longer throat and increased powder capacity depending on what bullet weight was used (heavier bullets had largest increase). Obviously the lower expansion ratio 30 cal bore will have more of an advantage then the better breathing larger bored 338 caliber but I am predicting that with a long throat design(single shot Only) it would not be unrealistic to see 3200 fps with the 300 gr bullet weights.
I do not use pressure barrels. The cost of this set up or the added cost to pay someone to pressure test ammo would simply add to the cost of the rifles, perhaps thats why some rifles in this class cost 20 to 40% more then others and offer nothing extra in quality or performance, often times less but they can say its all been pressure tested.......
Every rifle that leaves my shop is function tested on the range with ammo taylor made to each specific rifle. My accuracy loads are far from red line loads and I generally only post my accuracy load levels. MANY of my customers get far more performance out of my wildcats then I do simply because they push them a bit harder but give up some case life. FOr example, my 338 Allen Magnum will get you 3300-3325 fps with a 300 gr SMK with +8 firings per case...... Many of my customers push the 300 gr bullets to 3400 fps with 4-5 firings per case.
Now to put that into perspective, you can load a 338 Edge to 2900 fps with conventional throat length with a 300 gr SMK in a 30" barrel length and you will get 5-6 firings with Rem brass on average.
I do not red line my wildcats as some would have you believe. I do not care about bragging rights, my wildcats stand on their own and every rifle I have shipped WILL easily meet the velocity goals I have stated for each of my wildcats. This is something that CAN NOT be said for many other high performance semi-custom commerical rounds without using special barrel twists, specially undersized bullets, special bullet lubrication. I use standard powders, standard off the shelf bullets and offer the load data I use to test my customers rifles. I prove their rifles not only meet my 1/2 moa accuracy potential requirement (AT LONG RANGE, 800-1200 yards), but also that their rifles meet my velocity predictions for each wildcat.
I designed my wildcats to produce the velocity potential I wanted with comfortable pressures, great accuracy, great consistancy and great functional performance. This is by using large case capacities, longer barrels and proper powder choices, nothing special, nothing HIGH-TECH, just old school high performance designs.
Again, each of my rifles are proven more then safe with custom loads before they ship, that way I do not have customers calling me saying, I CAN NOT GET THE VELOCITY YOU STATED when we were talking about ordering a rifle.......
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
I can only talk about the 338 wildcats I have designed or worked with extensively.
338 Edge/338 Lapua
I include these two because when both are loaded to the same pressure they are ballistic twins simply because they have nearly idential case capacities, within 1-2 grains on average most of the time. In a 30" barrel length, you will see 2850 to 2900 fps with conventional length throats in a 1-10 twist barrel with a 300 gr SMK which we will use for a standard. Now, you can seat the bullets out very long in the Edge and improve its performance level compared to a short throated 338 Lapua, same can be done vice versa. You can also load up the 338 Lapua to MUCH higher chamber pressures then the Edge can be loaded to to make it appear to be much higher performance then the Edge, that simply is not true when both are loaded to the same 65,000 psi as they should be.
338 Ultra Maxx
This is a wildcat I designed sort at a request of a customer who already owned one of my 270 Allen Magnum which is a 300 RUM necked down and improved with my ALLEN MAGNUM case design. Simply put, the 338 Ultra Maxx is nothing more then a necked up to 338. Doing this moves the shoulder location forward even compared to where a 338 Edge Improved would be. Case capacity is 5-6% more then the Edge and Lapua class rifles with same length throat. Performance increases with Rem brass are somewhat limited at 50-60 fps over the Edge. Using Federal brass the 338 Ultra Maxx has proven it will add close to 100 fps but to be fair, if the Edge is loaded on Federal brass the advantage drops back to 50-60 fps. My idea for the Ultra Maxx was not really to beat the performance of the Edge or Lapua but instead to match that performance with longer case life working at slighly lower pressures. Is it worth it to the customer to fireform for this slight increase in performance, thats up to the customer.
338 ALLEN EXPRESS
The design goal of this wildcat was not to beat every other 338 magnum on the market but instead to just bring a few tweaks to this performance range for a better designed round. The 338 Allen Xpress is based on an improved 338 Lapua case design. 338 Lapua factory ammo can be safely fired in the 338 AX and generally shoots very well. Performance wise, the 338 AX will match or slighly exceed the 338-378 Wby, 338 Kahn, 338 Lapua Improved and Lazzeronis Titan but it does this using less powder and in a shorter overall length.
It is closest compared to the Titan and Lapua AI in dimensions but its shorter then the Titan and has a couple design specs that make it different then the AI. First, it has a bit more body taper then a true AI design so that it can be used at higher working pressures and still have perfect extraction performance. It also has a slightly shallower shoulder angle which allows it to feed smoother then a full AI case design.
Performance wise, again, all of these are in the same class, ranging from 2900 to 3000 fps with a 300 gr bullet weight in 30" barrel lengths. The main advantage the 338 ALLEN XPRESS has over most of the others is its parent case which nothing else really compares to in many ways inspite of some of the other cases costing DRAMATICALLY more for less strength and consistancy.
Another advantage is that you can get the 338 AX performance in a short 3.670" OAL if you decide you want to use a standard length mag box.
338 Raptor
Originally designed off the 338 Excalibur case made by Jamison International, I have now redesigned the 338 Raptor to use a unique case and working with Bertram Brass to make brass for my round. This is an ongoing adventure and hoping this summer will have brass in hand. The new case design is the same diameter as the 338 Lapua and the same length as the 408 CT at roughly 3.050" case length. I kept the neck length and shoulder design the same, added a slight bit more case taper for great extraction with this very long case length at high pressures, the main difference, a dramatically lengthened case body which will offer around 8-9% capacity over the original design. This will put usible powder charges into the low 130 gr ranges which compares to 98 to 102 grains for the 338 AX and 145 to 150 grains for the 338 Allen Magnum. Again, this is a work in progress. It was fully developed using the Jamison brass and then they went belly up so we had to change gears. Bruce Bertram tells me that his brass is being tested at pressures over 70,000 psi with great case life. This is far higher then we will load the Raptor to but if it does offer this level of strength, it will be on par with the Lapua brand 338 Lapua brass. Will be very impressive.
338 ALLEN MAGNUM
This wildcat is based on the 408 CT, necked down, shoulder location relocated to increase body length, case body taper reduced and shoulder angle increased to my AM configuration. This IS the largest 338 wildcat based on the Chey Tac parent case as far as capacity. Again, I was not looking for BRAGGING rights, I simply designed the highest performing, practical 338 magnum on the market, that is a requirement for a round to be labeled as an ALLEN MAGNUM, has to be the top of the pile. The 338 AM can be loaded to 60,000(VERY MILD) and still add 200 fps over the largest commerical 338 magnums including the 338-378 Wby and the Titan. Now load it up to its top comfortable working pressures and you get a SOLID 300 fps advantage with same length barrels, go with a proper barrel length in the 32-34" range and you can see up to 3400 fps depending on how hard you want to push this big wildcat. I generally load it to around 3300 fps with best accuracy results and longest barrel life.
I am also working with Bertram brass to make my my 338 Allen Magnum brass as well and he tells me that with the strength of his brass (Same as the old TTI brass) that I can expect to see 75 to 100 fps increase in performance with same number of firings per case...... It would be great to get back to that performance we had with the old TTI cases. We will see, again, this custom brass thing just takes time but working on it.
I offer formed brass and loading die sets for all of my wildcats so there is no case forming needed, no special form dies needed, I also offer load data feely for each rifle. This load data is developed with each specific rifle and is the same load used to accuracy test and prove each rifle capable of 1/2 moa accuracy potential before it ships. I also back each rifle 100%.
All of the 338 magnums listed on this post and other posts will get you want your looking for DEPENDING on exactly what your looking for. If you want a rifle to pack in the mountains all day for 600-700 yard shooting the 338 ALLEN MAGNUM would be a silly choice. I talk customers out of my wildcat chamberings 2 to 1 compared to those that actually get rifles in my wildcats. In many cases, there are better choices then my wildcats and my job is to recommend the best choice for THEIR application, not my ego, thats why my APS wildcat rifles make up around 20% of my total rifles shipped annually. If a 338 Lapua or 300 RUM is a better fit for the customers goals, I will flat out tell them that. They need to be happy with the rifle and a happy customer is FAR more important to me then what chamber is in the barrel.
Figure out your specific goals for your rifle, decide which would serve you best and most importantly, find a builder with a great reputation for providing what you want in your rifle.
338 Edge/338 Lapua
I include these two because when both are loaded to the same pressure they are ballistic twins simply because they have nearly idential case capacities, within 1-2 grains on average most of the time. In a 30" barrel length, you will see 2850 to 2900 fps with conventional length throats in a 1-10 twist barrel with a 300 gr SMK which we will use for a standard. Now, you can seat the bullets out very long in the Edge and improve its performance level compared to a short throated 338 Lapua, same can be done vice versa. You can also load up the 338 Lapua to MUCH higher chamber pressures then the Edge can be loaded to to make it appear to be much higher performance then the Edge, that simply is not true when both are loaded to the same 65,000 psi as they should be.
338 Ultra Maxx
This is a wildcat I designed sort at a request of a customer who already owned one of my 270 Allen Magnum which is a 300 RUM necked down and improved with my ALLEN MAGNUM case design. Simply put, the 338 Ultra Maxx is nothing more then a necked up to 338. Doing this moves the shoulder location forward even compared to where a 338 Edge Improved would be. Case capacity is 5-6% more then the Edge and Lapua class rifles with same length throat. Performance increases with Rem brass are somewhat limited at 50-60 fps over the Edge. Using Federal brass the 338 Ultra Maxx has proven it will add close to 100 fps but to be fair, if the Edge is loaded on Federal brass the advantage drops back to 50-60 fps. My idea for the Ultra Maxx was not really to beat the performance of the Edge or Lapua but instead to match that performance with longer case life working at slighly lower pressures. Is it worth it to the customer to fireform for this slight increase in performance, thats up to the customer.
338 ALLEN EXPRESS
The design goal of this wildcat was not to beat every other 338 magnum on the market but instead to just bring a few tweaks to this performance range for a better designed round. The 338 Allen Xpress is based on an improved 338 Lapua case design. 338 Lapua factory ammo can be safely fired in the 338 AX and generally shoots very well. Performance wise, the 338 AX will match or slighly exceed the 338-378 Wby, 338 Kahn, 338 Lapua Improved and Lazzeronis Titan but it does this using less powder and in a shorter overall length.
It is closest compared to the Titan and Lapua AI in dimensions but its shorter then the Titan and has a couple design specs that make it different then the AI. First, it has a bit more body taper then a true AI design so that it can be used at higher working pressures and still have perfect extraction performance. It also has a slightly shallower shoulder angle which allows it to feed smoother then a full AI case design.
Performance wise, again, all of these are in the same class, ranging from 2900 to 3000 fps with a 300 gr bullet weight in 30" barrel lengths. The main advantage the 338 ALLEN XPRESS has over most of the others is its parent case which nothing else really compares to in many ways inspite of some of the other cases costing DRAMATICALLY more for less strength and consistancy.
Another advantage is that you can get the 338 AX performance in a short 3.670" OAL if you decide you want to use a standard length mag box.
338 Raptor
Originally designed off the 338 Excalibur case made by Jamison International, I have now redesigned the 338 Raptor to use a unique case and working with Bertram Brass to make brass for my round. This is an ongoing adventure and hoping this summer will have brass in hand. The new case design is the same diameter as the 338 Lapua and the same length as the 408 CT at roughly 3.050" case length. I kept the neck length and shoulder design the same, added a slight bit more case taper for great extraction with this very long case length at high pressures, the main difference, a dramatically lengthened case body which will offer around 8-9% capacity over the original design. This will put usible powder charges into the low 130 gr ranges which compares to 98 to 102 grains for the 338 AX and 145 to 150 grains for the 338 Allen Magnum. Again, this is a work in progress. It was fully developed using the Jamison brass and then they went belly up so we had to change gears. Bruce Bertram tells me that his brass is being tested at pressures over 70,000 psi with great case life. This is far higher then we will load the Raptor to but if it does offer this level of strength, it will be on par with the Lapua brand 338 Lapua brass. Will be very impressive.
338 ALLEN MAGNUM
This wildcat is based on the 408 CT, necked down, shoulder location relocated to increase body length, case body taper reduced and shoulder angle increased to my AM configuration. This IS the largest 338 wildcat based on the Chey Tac parent case as far as capacity. Again, I was not looking for BRAGGING rights, I simply designed the highest performing, practical 338 magnum on the market, that is a requirement for a round to be labeled as an ALLEN MAGNUM, has to be the top of the pile. The 338 AM can be loaded to 60,000(VERY MILD) and still add 200 fps over the largest commerical 338 magnums including the 338-378 Wby and the Titan. Now load it up to its top comfortable working pressures and you get a SOLID 300 fps advantage with same length barrels, go with a proper barrel length in the 32-34" range and you can see up to 3400 fps depending on how hard you want to push this big wildcat. I generally load it to around 3300 fps with best accuracy results and longest barrel life.
I am also working with Bertram brass to make my my 338 Allen Magnum brass as well and he tells me that with the strength of his brass (Same as the old TTI brass) that I can expect to see 75 to 100 fps increase in performance with same number of firings per case...... It would be great to get back to that performance we had with the old TTI cases. We will see, again, this custom brass thing just takes time but working on it.
I offer formed brass and loading die sets for all of my wildcats so there is no case forming needed, no special form dies needed, I also offer load data feely for each rifle. This load data is developed with each specific rifle and is the same load used to accuracy test and prove each rifle capable of 1/2 moa accuracy potential before it ships. I also back each rifle 100%.
All of the 338 magnums listed on this post and other posts will get you want your looking for DEPENDING on exactly what your looking for. If you want a rifle to pack in the mountains all day for 600-700 yard shooting the 338 ALLEN MAGNUM would be a silly choice. I talk customers out of my wildcat chamberings 2 to 1 compared to those that actually get rifles in my wildcats. In many cases, there are better choices then my wildcats and my job is to recommend the best choice for THEIR application, not my ego, thats why my APS wildcat rifles make up around 20% of my total rifles shipped annually. If a 338 Lapua or 300 RUM is a better fit for the customers goals, I will flat out tell them that. They need to be happy with the rifle and a happy customer is FAR more important to me then what chamber is in the barrel.
Figure out your specific goals for your rifle, decide which would serve you best and most importantly, find a builder with a great reputation for providing what you want in your rifle.
Hello all, I am new to this thread, and the Forum for that matter. Just thought I would respond to the OP's question..Have I had experience with the Titan? or 338/378 wby?
Titan- no, Wby..extensivel!!
From the start , let me say that my experience with the round was generated purely from a Hunting perspective. I hunted extensively with a various .338 win mag rifles and was impressed with their performance on game at all ranges within their limitations. I then moved up to the 340 Weatherby round in factory weatherby rifles ! Same impressive results..practical range extended. Like 'Boat owners, always wanting the model 2Ft longer than the one they have, and because vast expanses of clear cut logging were opening up the ranges of hunting, I researched the .338 supers. I Ultimately decided on the 338/378 wby cartridge....
My first foray into this was to have a .338 win, in a ruger #1, 26"barrel, rechambered and custom stocked..better than the 340!! (I have since sold and rebought this rifle 3 times!! ) Seems others didn't like the recoil..can't figure out why?)
I then opted for another custom rifle in order to get a barrel length that would make effective use of the case capacity of the Round. (not smart enough to rebarrel the one I already had
. I contacted scores of 'Custom gunmakers' with what I wanted to achieve to get quotes on the build. The same 'scores' all tried to REDIRECT me to some other round..(the 338 lapua is more efficient!, the 338 RUM is cheaper and almost as good, blah, blah & blah!!)
Has no one heard the addage ' the customer is always right? I wasn't seeking ADVICE on what to build..I wanted to know if they COULD build what I wanted and what it would cost!!!I have 2 custom rifles in 338/378 at this juncture (not including the original #1 which is again in the hands of another..will see if it finds it's way home again) (as well as a couple of factory WBY accumarks) The second custom was built on a Ruger #1 action, which was installed with a 30" match grade stainless, fluted barrel...I shoot a load with 250gr nosler partitions that depart at just over 3400FPs..Longest kill to date is 830yds (lazered) Bull moose, broadside, 1 shot, still going!!(the bulllet, not the moose.
I have taken more game than I can count with this rifle..from 50 yds (grizzly) to the a/n 830yds, and everything in between. Never more than 1 shot req'd!Here is where it is prudent to talk 'bullets' For me, a hunting rifle, although capable of long range shooting, must be prepared for 'close encounters of the furry kind' as well. Very high BC bullets (Sierra match kings being a perfect example) are 'useless' if, when 'climbing that Mt for that sheep, you round a rock and come face to face with MR Grizzly!
Being as how the Ruger #1 was such a success, I wanted to 'get a bigger boat'!
This time, I used a #1 with a stainless action, I had a heavy, Krieger, match grade, stainless barrel attached, in 1/2 Rd; 1/2 Octagon configuration. (kinda used my Shiloh Sharps 50/140 Long Range Express for inspiration !) Barrel length on this one is 34"
I incorporated a moyers trigger, a hicks accurizer, and a custom chambering reamer which has a tight neck and a freebore 3/8" longer than WBY std for the cal. Note, the single shot action eliminates the BS about OAL to fit the magazine that sees the bullet stuffed halfway down the casing and taking up valuable powder capacity)
I designed this one to use BARNES TSX, 285 gr lapua bullets exclusively!
To date I am getting just over 3200 FPS, with several different powders, and getting 1/2 inch groups with some combos.
The 338/378 round is an awesome performer. Factory rifles that shoot Factory ammo are available and that is always a bonus. In Factory guise it is heads and shoulders above the others. Its potential to soup it up is also competitive with any of the others if used in custom rifles that will allow bullets to be seated out!!
Just a final thought..when discussing the 338/378 WBY (or cousins for that matter) talking about the round vis a vie' a lightweight, mountain rifle, 7 + 1/2 lbs!!, ) Too much cartridge for that concept, and not it's intended use or design. A long range target performer, and/or a solid game thumper at any PRactical range it will accomplish!
my 2 cents
cheersgun)
Long Time Long Ranger
Well-Known Member
Autorotate, They do not like to be seated near the lands in my rifles and prefer to be off the lands, some by quite a bit. The Cutting Edge bullets are not critical to seating depth from what I have found so far. I have some seated very deep to chamber through my magazine and some seated to the exact length the CE website states. They all shoot. I have shot them in at least a dozen different rifles and a couple like them excactly where the website says and are deadly accurate. Some are seated very deep with the beginning of the case neck even with where the boattail begins. That is where I get best accuracy with many rifles with various bullets. Seating the seal tite band into the neck is not a problem.
When I started using the bullets I seated them to the recommended depth and they shot very well in all rifles. Since then I have played with seating depth to try and tweak the best accuracy. Right now I am playing with the 260 grain .76 BC bullets. I will let you know how they shoot as I try them.
I am not having any problem with barrel fouling with these bullets. The grooves cut into them seem to alleviate fouling problems.
When I started using the bullets I seated them to the recommended depth and they shot very well in all rifles. Since then I have played with seating depth to try and tweak the best accuracy. Right now I am playing with the 260 grain .76 BC bullets. I will let you know how they shoot as I try them.
I am not having any problem with barrel fouling with these bullets. The grooves cut into them seem to alleviate fouling problems.
the Lazzeroni 8.59(.338)Titan, was designed to meet or exceed the performance of the 338/378 WBY MAG, but without the big belt, the rebated rim behind the belt, and provide 3 in the mag box feeding ,,,, and it does exactly that ,,,,
if you offer something faster than that, then you have quite a bit more case capacity, than the big WBY or Lazzeroni Titan, (which I think you do, but I am not sure how much) or you are overloading the cases,,,,
you guys also need to be careful, as prompting customers to push their chamber pressures up & over, 70-80,000 PSI and beyond, regardless of how many firings you think you can achieve from a piece of brass is a recipe for disaster ,,,,,
all it takes is for someone to make a couple of simple mistakes ,,,,,
I personally shoot each Lazzeroni rifle, with an 86,000 PSI proof round, prior to testing for accuracy, on a clean cold barrel ,,,,, & the Lazzeroni brass cases are good enough that the primers are still in the cases,,,, I can resize and reload the same case for another proof firing ,,,,
BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT SAFE FOR GENERAL HUNTING & SHOOTING ,,,,,
if you offer something faster than that, then you have quite a bit more case capacity, than the big WBY or Lazzeroni Titan, (which I think you do, but I am not sure how much) or you are overloading the cases,,,,
you guys also need to be careful, as prompting customers to push their chamber pressures up & over, 70-80,000 PSI and beyond, regardless of how many firings you think you can achieve from a piece of brass is a recipe for disaster ,,,,,
all it takes is for someone to make a couple of simple mistakes ,,,,,
I personally shoot each Lazzeroni rifle, with an 86,000 PSI proof round, prior to testing for accuracy, on a clean cold barrel ,,,,, & the Lazzeroni brass cases are good enough that the primers are still in the cases,,,, I can resize and reload the same case for another proof firing ,,,,
BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT SAFE FOR GENERAL HUNTING & SHOOTING ,,,,,
kc0pph
Well-Known Member
Just looked at your website and saw you had GREAT prices on brass. After i shoot out my 338-378 wby barrel is it possible to re chamber it to your Titan? It is in the same league as the Wby but brass is 1/2 the cost. Just some food for thought, as i dont think it will be too long before i need to replace the barrel in my stock Mkv Accumark.
kcopph ,,,,,,,
not a problem, the big Lazz case will fit into your existing bolt-face and cycle/extract just fine ,,,,,,
I believe the big Lazz cases will also feed thru your WBY mag box without issues ,,,,,
just make sure that you start with a new barrel ,,,,,,
not a problem, the big Lazz case will fit into your existing bolt-face and cycle/extract just fine ,,,,,,
I believe the big Lazz cases will also feed thru your WBY mag box without issues ,,,,,
just make sure that you start with a new barrel ,,,,,,
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
I could not agree more with Johns comments about loading your ammo to hot. I know when I developed loads in the 338 ALLEN XPRESS, it was nearly impossible to develope save, known loads using the Lapua brand brass. As such, I had to go a different route to test my ammunition.
Knowing that the 338 Lapua and the 338 Edge have nearly identical case capacity (generally within 1-2 grains of each other) it was easy to use the Remington brass as a standard. Its a known fact that 300 RUM brass will start to have loosened primer pockets with loads much over 65,000 psi. At this level you will generally get 4 firings before the cases need to be retired.
The 338 Lapua brass made by Norma is MUCH softer then the Lapua brand brass. In fact, when shooting over a chronograph, the 338 Lapua made by Norma will start to loosen primer pockets nearly at the identical velocity as a 338 Edge rifle shooting same bullet weight in same barrel length. This told me that the Norma brass would start to loosen primer pockets right at the same 65,000 psi range.
SO WHAT???
Well, this gave me a means to test all of my loads for my wildcats based on the 338 Lapua case. I developed loads for every one of them (277 AM, 7mm AM, 300 AX, 338 AX and 375 AX) using Norma brass and would develope loads working up until case head expansion and primer pocket fit would allow 4 firings per case. Again, telling me that the loads were all producing chamber pressures in the 65 to 68,000 psi range which is right at the top working pressures for modern magnum chamberings.
Now, commerical companies can not load their factory ammo to this same level because they can not test every rifle with this ammo and prove every one is safe so they have to download their ammo with a margin of safety.
As mentioned , I do not have to do that because I do test every rifle and prove its safe.
Now using the Lapua brass, you will, or should NEVER get close to loosening the primer pockets and that is why I ALWAYS give my customers a go to velocity and that they should never go over that. This is because I have tested their rifles to this velocity level and proven them safe to be working in the known 65 to 68,000 psi.
NEVER load your ammo over the recommended velocity range given to you by the rifle manufacturer and if you see pressure signs earlier, stop and contact the maker. Loading any ammo to over 70,000 psi is crazy as powder detonation will occur close after this and that is when things get really serious with large capacity magnums.
Do not overload your ammo, be safe. If you want more velocity, go with a bigger engine!!!
Knowing that the 338 Lapua and the 338 Edge have nearly identical case capacity (generally within 1-2 grains of each other) it was easy to use the Remington brass as a standard. Its a known fact that 300 RUM brass will start to have loosened primer pockets with loads much over 65,000 psi. At this level you will generally get 4 firings before the cases need to be retired.
The 338 Lapua brass made by Norma is MUCH softer then the Lapua brand brass. In fact, when shooting over a chronograph, the 338 Lapua made by Norma will start to loosen primer pockets nearly at the identical velocity as a 338 Edge rifle shooting same bullet weight in same barrel length. This told me that the Norma brass would start to loosen primer pockets right at the same 65,000 psi range.
SO WHAT???
Well, this gave me a means to test all of my loads for my wildcats based on the 338 Lapua case. I developed loads for every one of them (277 AM, 7mm AM, 300 AX, 338 AX and 375 AX) using Norma brass and would develope loads working up until case head expansion and primer pocket fit would allow 4 firings per case. Again, telling me that the loads were all producing chamber pressures in the 65 to 68,000 psi range which is right at the top working pressures for modern magnum chamberings.
Now, commerical companies can not load their factory ammo to this same level because they can not test every rifle with this ammo and prove every one is safe so they have to download their ammo with a margin of safety.
As mentioned , I do not have to do that because I do test every rifle and prove its safe.
Now using the Lapua brass, you will, or should NEVER get close to loosening the primer pockets and that is why I ALWAYS give my customers a go to velocity and that they should never go over that. This is because I have tested their rifles to this velocity level and proven them safe to be working in the known 65 to 68,000 psi.
NEVER load your ammo over the recommended velocity range given to you by the rifle manufacturer and if you see pressure signs earlier, stop and contact the maker. Loading any ammo to over 70,000 psi is crazy as powder detonation will occur close after this and that is when things get really serious with large capacity magnums.
Do not overload your ammo, be safe. If you want more velocity, go with a bigger engine!!!
Kirby.....
I have a Sako TRGS M995 that was originally a 7.82 Warbird that I am considering to have you rebarrel with your 338 AX , I have a new 338 Brux 9.5 twist 30" bbl for it, my question is ....
Will it work with the 300 grain Accubonds and my max OAL of 3.700" that is allowed by the detachable magazine... inside length of the mags is 3.756" and I've used the 3.700" max oal for all my 200 gr 30 cal Accubond loads in the Warbird that fed without any problems. I know it will work flawlessly with the 250 gr and lighter bullets but I've accumulated 600 of the 300 gr Accubonds and they are my go to bullet for hunting moose and bear from 10 yards and out to 1k
I have a Sako TRGS M995 that was originally a 7.82 Warbird that I am considering to have you rebarrel with your 338 AX , I have a new 338 Brux 9.5 twist 30" bbl for it, my question is ....
Will it work with the 300 grain Accubonds and my max OAL of 3.700" that is allowed by the detachable magazine... inside length of the mags is 3.756" and I've used the 3.700" max oal for all my 200 gr 30 cal Accubond loads in the Warbird that fed without any problems. I know it will work flawlessly with the 250 gr and lighter bullets but I've accumulated 600 of the 300 gr Accubonds and they are my go to bullet for hunting moose and bear from 10 yards and out to 1k
