308 or 30-06 with heavy’s

memtb said:
I just did a little math (using approximates for values)! A .308 Win. with a 200 grain bullet gives 2600 fps (I'm being generous) muzzle velocity, has a flight time of 1.6 seconds for 1000 yards....no self respecting hunter would give an animal, especially a whitetail, 1.6 seconds of potential movement. And, this does not include the shooters response time....which adds approximately another .2 seconds ( brain to trigger pull event time) to the flight time. We are also are down to approximately 1450 fps velocity at 1000 yards, well below reliable expansion velocities.....even with a Berger! Again, for paper or steel.....all of this is a non-issue! For animals, especially game animals .....ethics should play a roll in choices made for "long distance hunting"!

You mentioned the "tenacity for life" exhibited by a whitetail.....do you not agree that the whitetail deserves the respect to a quick death?

You do not have to agree....but I believe these are valid issues to consider when shooting game animals! memtb
Click to expand...

If your really a hunter a 1.6 second flight time is not an issue, this is part of long range hunting that so many don't get, a part of the hunting is really observing game and their state and understanding when to send it or not, animals are very predictable if you put the time in to watch their movements and state of mind. I've never had an animal move when pulling the trigger at long range, I see FAR more cases of error due to movement when your in close to animals, it's almost a guarantee with archery that you have to take into account.
You don't know how far down a 215 Berger will expand, trust me it's much lower and farther than your thinking, I've seen a number of animals in the 1400 fps range and they worked well.
 
I very much agree with "Beyond 300 yds? be a better hunter: get closer" I don't like
the snipers, shooting big game at ridiculous distances. You are not hunters, just plain
killers. Hunting is not taking an animal at 1000 yards or more, any moron with the right rifle and some practice can do that. Be a hunter, not a wanton killer.
 
duke75 said:
I very much agree with "Beyond 300 yds? be a better hunter: get closer" I don't like
the snipers, shooting big game at ridiculous distances. You are not hunters, just plain
killers. Hunting is not taking an animal at 1000 yards or more, any moron with the right rifle and some practice can do that. Be a hunter, not a wanton killer.
Click to expand...

You are on a LONG RANGE HUNTING forum you might want to figure that out!!

Your post shows you really have no idea what hunting really is, I've seen more guys whipping lead and wounding animals inside the magical "your a hunter" range than any other group, who's working harder for a good clean kill and hunting for that animal, the guy that blows a bullet up a running animals butt at 100 yards or the guy that spent all season patterning elk and working on his shooting so he can MAYBE take that one clean shot on that one animal of the season, an animal that is under no stress, no flight or fight, no stressing out the animals, no running the herd into the next county just one clean shot!!
 
Last edited:
bigngreen said:
If your really a hunter a 1.6 second flight time is not an issue, this is part of long range hunting that so many don't get, a part of the hunting is really observing game and their state and understanding when to send it or not, animals are very predictable if you put the time in to watch their movements and state of mind. I've never had an animal move when pulling the trigger at long range, I see FAR more cases of error due to movement when your in close to animals, it's almost a guarantee with archery that you have to take into account.
You don't know how far down a 215 Berger will expand, trust me it's much lower and farther than your thinking, I've seen a number of animals in the 1400 fps range and they worked well.
Click to expand...


You are correct, I have no personal knowledge of Berger performance, other than that of reports from many hunters. They are noted for their " grenade like" characteristics......so, I've purposely avoided them. I much prefer to shoot at game much closer and higher velocity, than Bergers appear to be constructed for. I'd prefer a bullet of capable construction, able to withstand impact from muzzle to my "self-imposed" range of 600 yards. It's much easier than carrying a "Baskin Robbins" array of bullets, so specialized as to their ranges of ideal use, angle of impact, bone/hair/muscle density, ect. Having the ability to tell the internet world of my long range prowess when shooting game animals, best left for the experts.....of which I am not!

Someone can observe an animal all they want, but you cannot, with 100% or even 80% "guarantee what that animal "may" do, at any given time. A hawk or eagle flying nearby, a nearby falling rock (if you've hunted in the mountains, you've heard this I'm sure), a man-scent suddenly "wafted" into the animals Olfactory System, an unseen small rodent or snake, or in our area, the scent or sight of wolves nearby, are among the many things you "cannot" predict that can cause a movement of the animal.....which, if occurring at the wrong moment, can cause a crippling, debilitating wound! A "spooked" animal can move a great deal in the 1.6 seconds I spoke of. I'm certain that, no hunter wants to contribute to the unnecessary suffering of a game animal! memtb
 
duke75 said:
I very much agree with "Beyond 300 yds? be a better hunter: get closer" I don't like
the snipers, shooting big game at ridiculous distances. You are not hunters, just plain
killers. Hunting is not taking an animal at 1000 yards or more, any moron with the right rifle and some practice can do that. Be a hunter, not a wanton killer.
Click to expand...
I think you might be on the wrong hunting site...

I've killed animals at distances I could have stuck an apple out and had it eating from my hand... There is WAY more skill involved in LRH than just buying a gun & scope, and pulling the trigger.

So, in war, do you consider the snipers to be "cowards", because they're not right up on the front-line with the rest of the Infantry Unit? Even though their job is for both mid-to-long range protection/suppressive firepower for ground troops, but also offensive tactics for high-value targets, where they act autonomously, set their own parameters, and have to make their own decisions, to make it through the missions alive. Personally, I find the sniper's role to be more than quintessential to the mechanics of war, and quite possibly the most highly-trained, calculating, and self-controlled soldier on the battlefield.
 
Sorry to the OP to derail this further but I'd be curious to hear where the 300 yards and in guys are from and where they hunt? I'd venture to guess the east coast or if out west they don't hunt open country where animals spot you at distances over twice what they say is their max range. I'm not throwing mud at guys that have their standards and stick to them, good for you, seriously. But don't throw mud on ours. I've got a job that doesn't give me the time I'd like to have to hunt and some years has me missing the whole season. So I spend time working on my shooting so I can capitalize on my opportunities when I get them. I pass on plenty of shots because as a hunter I know when to not pull the trigger. I've taken plenty of game at ranges under 300 yards and the amount of time that goes into those shots is exponentially less than one I take at distance. I've seen so many more rushed and bad shots at short range than long. There always seems to be a greater sense of urgency and adrenaline at closer ranges that leads to hurried poor shots. At distance the need to really evaluate things, check and recheck ranges, elevation adjustments and wind calls slows everything down and empty chamber practice shots are taken which allows the shooter to calm down.
 
Throw hunting pack in truck, stop at grocery store and fill cooler.
Stop at sporting goods shop and buy gun and ammo that works for it,,, get them to attach optic,,, head out of Dodge,,, sight in rifle,,, check the external ballistics for drop and wind... Sight in rifle and go kill $4!+,,, its just that simple...

And OP B-74 did not state he was planning to shoot 1000 yards on his thread,,, if he did,,, why would he choose a 30/06 or 308 for that distance,,, Ha...

Both cartrages are so close it ain't worth splitting hairs,,, would a critter know the difference of 1 to 200 ft-per seconds difference,,, probably not...

The Ought makes up for faster boolit with a fraction more recoil,,, the 08 makes up for a bit less recoil,,,.kinda like a win win for both units...

I have limited experience with both of them over a few years,,, both are capable of harvesting game,,, they are frugal to shoot and fun...

The old guy told me years ago,,, friends don't let friends shoot 168's in the 30 caliber world,,, the 180's on up shoot so smoooooth that it's like holding onto magic,,, same for the 185's,,, 190's,,, 200's,,, 208's,,, and 212's...

If I recall there are 12. something grains to 1 gram,,, so is it worth splitting hairs in that category,,, nopers in my books... Basically 2 grams difference between the 180's and 208's...

And last but not least,,, if a shooter wants a boolti to expand bellow 1300 ft-per seconds,,, then log onto the Hornady sight and research the ELD-X's,,, they have tested them to a T,,, that is why they replaced them on thier site from the A-Max's... If early expansion is must...

They will perform from 3200 ft-per seconds as low as 1300,,, a win win since us mid bore shooters have options too. LOL

Always more wrong then right you know...

Got to run,,, its ammo loading time for my 308 long range,,, my 32" pipe loves the heavier,,, actually all 30 caliber units like them. Ha
 
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memtb said:
You are correct, I have no personal knowledge of Berger performance, other than that of reports from many hunters. They are noted for their " grenade like" characteristics......so, I've purposely avoided them. I much prefer to shoot at game much closer and higher velocity, than Bergers appear to be constructed for. I'd prefer a bullet of capable construction, able to withstand impact from muzzle to my "self-imposed" range of 600 yards. It's much easier than carrying a "Baskin Robbins" array of bullets, so specialized as to their ranges of ideal use, angle of impact, bone/hair/muscle density, ect. Having the ability to tell the internet world of my long range prowess when shooting game animals, best left for the experts.....of which I am not!

Someone can observe an animal all they want, but you cannot, with 100% or even 80% "guarantee what that animal "may" do, at any given time. A hawk or eagle flying nearby, a nearby falling rock (if you've hunted in the mountains, you've heard this I'm sure), a man-scent suddenly "wafted" into the animals Olfactory System, an unseen small rodent or snake, or in our area, the scent or sight of wolves nearby, are among the many things you "cannot" predict that can cause a movement of the animal.....which, if occurring at the wrong moment, can cause a crippling, debilitating wound! A "spooked" animal can move a great deal in the 1.6 seconds I spoke of. I'm certain that, no hunter wants to contribute to the unnecessary suffering of a game animal! memtb
Click to expand...


I agree with you. That's why I'm shooting 181 Hammer Hunters on elk this fall rather than Berger 215's in my 300 WM. In 2017, even though I knew better ...I tried a quick, quartering (raking) shot on a trotting bull at 120 yards and hit it high above the shoulder..."cupped it" I think, as it turned away from me, late in the day, without recovering the animal. If I were to have a similar shot with the Hammer Hunter this fall, I wouldn't take it. But, at least, with the Hammer, I wouldn't have to have a true broadside shot to ensure deep (probably through and through) penetration.
 
Will Gray said:
I am a guest hunter in a trophy planned lease so I have to be sure that I do not shoot a button buck, mistaking it for a doe. I can shoot cull bucks (OLD 8-point, and OLD spikes). Those restrictions limit me to being sure before shooting. Since that is difficult to be sure of beyond 200yds I will lay my 338 EDGE aside this year and hunt with my 358 Winchester. It pushes a 200g Sierra RN to 2650fps. It is most desirable that the deer drops where hit because the brush /cactus makes it very difficult to follow a blood trail. I like the 308 and 30-06 families of cartridges as brass is plentiful and easy. Cartridges between the 35 Whelen/358Winchester and the 25-06 or 243 give lots of low cost options and great performance. I am an old guy who likes the old ones... Bigger is better. Beyond 300 yds? be a better hunter: get closer
Click to expand...
Be a way better hunter practice and be confident in your weapon. Then pop em out to 600+ with a 308. It'll make you smile, with a perma-grin!
 
I like Harvesting rocks,,, granite is my favorite since they taste better than Sand Stone. Ha

Just kidding...

Next time your out shooting, find a solid rock, shoot it at 200 ish yards with hot 165/68 gr'ers,,, then try the 180's on up...

I Pretty much guarantee a shooter will never go back to the shorter lighter booltiz unless they are hunting predators or light / thin skin game...

Impact of the 180's to 212/15's is simply awesome,,, the Ought 6 & 08 offer chances of successful hunts in my books,,, 35' to 148 yards easy so long as we get the drop on them... Even further if a person has time for the set-up...

Of course this is dependent of the shooter... lots of shooters are scaling back to the old schools since age,,, costs,,, and simplistic's fit their shooting needs,,, """if not,,,""" then keep it rocking with the big bores... All of us have options...

Our sheep hunting fellow is going into year 42 shooting his 308,,, lots of them,,, Moose,,, endless Elk,,, and who knows how many bears and Deer that old rifle has taken...

I bet that his rifle has covered 2 to 4000 miles on foot as it covered most of Western North America... Battle scares and scrapes to boot...

Like I mentioned earlier,,, find a mid bore or larger case that suits your fancy,,, buy a rifle you like,,, and get at it,,, that's what it's all about you know...

I'm hopefully building my last finish up unit as I type,,, Old school 65/06 since it will fill my needs to end game...

Lots more shooting and limited days hunting as I scale back... Its more about boots on the ground and taking in the moment now days...

A chance to see 2 Royal Elk appear and disappear is hart pounding... I call the catch and release... Ha...

Ain't no way I'm packing 400 ish lbs of critter back to the road for loading...

Good times come to those that put in the time
 
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