308 LC 12 brass - primed: OK it is UGLY - BUYER beware

[westcliffe01]

Got through de-tarring the LR brass this evening, another tumble to clean it up 100%. Decided to try the "anneal in a baking tin" trick this evening. Tedious but better than nothing I suppose... First time for me. Ran all of the non LR brass through the full length sizing die after annealing and didn't have anything split or make any funny noises on me. The base of the cartridges was slightly oversize according to my Hornady die, so that was where the most effort was needed. This brass might have chambered a bit tight in a bolt gun for that feature.

Tomorrow I will anneal the LR brass and repeat the FL sizing process on that batch. If it all works out, hopefully I am only out about 20-30 pieces of brass.

Perhaps this is not going to be as big a disaster as I thought, but time will tell. It could be that a very particular batch of brass was defective within the 2012 calender year, but the headstamp is not detailed enough to tell it apart. Presumably the original packaging had the batch number on it.

Anyway, I did get some Lapua Palma brass on order which shipped today from Midway, and it is my first Lapua brass ever, so my expectations are high.

 

[eddybo]

The stainless tumbling media will not remove the tar?

 

[SidecarFlip]

Got through de-tarring the LR brass this evening, another tumble to clean it up 100%. Decided to try the "anneal in a baking tin" trick this evening. Tedious but better than nothing I suppose... First time for me. Ran all of the non LR brass through the full length sizing die after annealing and didn't have anything split or make any funny noises on me. The base of the cartridges was slightly oversize according to my Hornady die, so that was where the most effort was needed. This brass might have chambered a bit tight in a bolt gun for that feature.

Tomorrow I will anneal the LR brass and repeat the FL sizing process on that batch. If it all works out, hopefully I am only out about 20-30 pieces of brass.

Perhaps this is not going to be as big a disaster as I thought, but time will tell. It could be that a very particular batch of brass was defective within the 2012 calender year, but the headstamp is not detailed enough to tell it apart. Presumably the original packaging had the batch number on it.

Anyway, I did get some Lapua Palma brass on order which shipped today from Midway, and it is my first Lapua brass ever, so my expectations are high.

IMO, you are playing 'devils advocate' by annealing via pie pan/water method, but then, I won't be in town until Monday, business calls, My posts will be via laptop and Bluetooth.

I'm having issues with the F/L resize, I stuck one in my comp die, no biggie here, I arbor pressed it out. Not every case, in the hundred I ran, I had 10 that didn't feel right. The first one I pushed and stuck (ripped off the base). After that, I just set them aside and went back and Neck Sized them and then F/L resized. I can tell by the 'feel' if it's gonna be a bummer and I should not have pushed it. The cases I have, LC13, are all over the place as far as sizing resistance and COAL after resizing. Some are trimming just a tad, some are trimming a lot. I'm setting them all to 2.005 right on the bean.

I have a Redding micrometer trimmer that I modified to a power drive. It's a good one for holding case lengths.

I went through them all this evening and no neck splits whatsoever.... other than the one I ripped the base off, I have no culls. No saw brass, not even a dented case mouth and unlike yours, the anneal is very visible. Was a good buy for range brass.

I really like Lapua anything. Expensive and worth it. I order all my preloaded rounds from HSM/IQ and specify Lapua brass on everything.

 

[SidecarFlip]

The stainless tumbling media will not remove the tar?

Maybe STM and Stoddard solvent but STM, water and dish soap, no way.

STM may be good, but it's not that good, without some help, but then I use stainless micro balls and they work in bowl tumblers too.

 

[westcliffe01]

The media actually gets stuck in the tar and then you need to use the solvent to dissolve it and free the media that it trapped... Ideally one would soak them in solvent to get rid of the tar first, perhaps use a nylon bore brush to scrub it out.

Detergent does not make much of an impression on tar. Having tar balls in your stainless media is not good for much either...

The stainless tumbling media will not remove the tar?

 

[westcliffe01]

Long night last night. Annealed the entire LR batch (about 300 shells) in the baking tray method, then FL sized them, then collet neck sized them (I believe one only gets a straight cylindrical neck this way), then another tumble to remove the lube and the bit of oxide on the neck.

So at this point I'm just waiting on a primer pocket swager, and a delivery from Grafs of the 175gr match bullets I ordered. I don't know who made these bullets, but they have a decent weight and BC and were very modestly priced. Drat, I still have to length trim all of those cases....

I am trying to figure out if I need CCI 450 primers for the Lapua Palma brass which came in today. I intend to be shooting 185gr Bergers from those. I have CCI 400 primers, so maybe that is where I will have to start...

 

[SidecarFlip]

Long night last night. Annealed the entire LR batch (about 300 shells) in the baking tray method, then FL sized them, then collet neck sized them (I believe one only gets a straight cylindrical neck this way), then another tumble to remove the lube and the bit of oxide on the neck.

Neck concentricity in relationship to the case body is entirely the function of how cenerted the expander ball is in the die and if the die has a locating bushing which is why bushing dies are the preferred choice for high accuracy ammunition and/or quality dies. In this case I use RCBS Competition bushing dies and tha appropriate neck bushing of course.

When I set expander ball height in any die, a indicate the position of the expander ball and stem in relationship the wall of the die and set the stem/ball centered in the die bore.

So at this point I'm just waiting on a primer pocket swager, and a delivery from Grafs of the 175gr match bullets I ordered. I don't know who made these bullets, but they have a decent weight and BC and were very modestly priced. Drat, I still have to length trim all of those cases....

Primer pocket swager?? I use a High speed 60 degree chatterless countersink and just cut the lip out and no more. Takes a second. Check the flash holes andream the pockets too.

I am trying to figure out if I need CCI 450 primers for the Lapua Palma brass which came in today. I intend to be shooting 185gr Bergers from those. I have CCI 400 primers, so maybe that is where I will have to start...

According to both the Sierra, the Hornady and Berger reloading manuals, all recommend Federal 210 or 210M primers and Sierra recommends a 1.5 grain reduction in load for mil brass.

By collet die, I presume you refer to Lee. You won't find any Lee dies on my shelf except for straight wall cases.

Glad I don't pie pan anneal. Be apprised, those little holes in your receiver let the flame out when things get stupid without blowing back in your face.....

 

[westcliffe01]

SidecarFlip, given the fact that I have designed and built swaging machines that can swage stainless steel tubing up to a little more than 14" in diameter to within 0.001-2" (individual target size that may vary up to nearly 1/2" in overall diameter), I am somewhat biased about swaging materials if I can, instead of cutting them.

I just got my die in the mail yesterday from the folks at CH4D reloading in Sandusky OH. Just about 15 minutes ago, I finished running all the crimped brass through it. I will admit that after the first couple of cases, I took the mandrel out the die and polished it to a mirror finish with some diamond compound I had on hand. Finish is important on any metal displacing piece of hardware. It took just a couple of seconds per case to swage. The way their die is setup you load the case on top of the die, so outside the press itself. That alone makes the process faster since you don't have to negotiate the confines of the press. Mine is a Hornady Lock N Load aluminum framed press, so its not very big/spacious.

I was surprised how much the tightness of the pockets varied. About 10% had a very tight pocket and it took a lot more force to swage.

Now I just have to do the length trim and find some powder. And wait for my savage 308 to arrive at my FFL...

What do you have against collet dies ? What could be more consistent than clamping brass against a polished steel rod of the appropriate diameter ? My full length dies produce necks that are tapered. The neck is always smaller at the bottom near the shoulder than at the top at the mouth. To each his own..

Are you suggesting something might let go from the pie pan annealing ? It seems that NOT annealing might be more prone to letting the flame out where it should not, as opposed to imperfect annealing.

I would like an automated annealing setup, but that will have to wait until my savings recover...

According to both the Sierra, the Hornady and Berger reloading manuals, all recommend Federal 210 or 210M primers and Sierra recommends a 1.5 grain reduction in load for mil brass.

By collet die, I presume you refer to Lee. You won't find any Lee dies on my shelf except for straight wall cases.

Glad I don't pie pan anneal. Be apprised, those little holes in your receiver let the flame out when things get stupid without blowing back in your face.....

 

[SidecarFlip]

Well, I'm home now and all my cases (except 4 of the 500 passed muster). All resized, trimmed, pockets reamed and chamfered, primed and in the plastic (kitty litter) jug on the shelf until I need them (primed with the Sierra recomended primers BTW).

The 4 that didn't pass muster, I pulled the rims off resizing. No biggie. I just trundle over to the hydraulic broach press, pull the top nut, run the fixing sleeve out and push the case and expander ball rod out. Takes 30 seconds tops.

Interestingly, they were all over the place both in COAL (after F/L resize) and body diameter. Not now. All are 2.005 +/- 0.003.

My take on annealing brass is, I never attempted the 'pie pan' method, it's inconsistencies are too great. Annealing a case mouth and getting it too soft is an exercise in disaster. Spend the money and get consistency. If you don't have the money, don't tempt fate by being cheap. It's your face behind the chamber...... not mine.

No, I don't like collet dies but thats my preference. I like bushing dies because the concentricity of the neck in a bottleneck cartridge is controlled by the bushing as is the tension applied to the neck to secure the projectile.

Dillon makes a dandy primer pocker swager as well as RCBS but I prefer the traditional method of a 60 degree chatterless countersink, but the I chuck them in the lathe and play chango-swithcho. Takes no time at all.

You do it your way, I'll do it mine. However, you'll never catch me playing Pie-Pan Russian Roulette.

You'll know when you get a bad one, real fast..... I might read about you in the Adrian Telegram.......

Have fun. Just ordered 4 eight pound jugs of H1000. Never have enough.

 

[westcliffe01]

Where do you get your powder ? Somewhere you can pick up in store ?

 

[SidecarFlip]

Where do you get your powder ? Somewhere you can pick up in store ?

I wish. No one around here even sells 8 pound jugs and I never buy one pound anything except Tite-Group for pistols and Accurate (Western) for the wuzzleloader.

With the preeusre cooker thing, I fully expect that the Wahington Cabal will find a way to make even Accurate and Pyrodex hard to get...lol

No, online. Like the brass at Wideners, I make it a daily ritual to peruse all the suppliers and BINGO, there it was so I grabbed a few jugs. Frankly, it's tedious, like buying lottery tickets. Lots of duds but that one good one.......

Primers are another story. I'm thankful I have thousands on the shelf, but if I see any, I'll vacuum them up.

I'm just curious what all the thousands of new firearm buyers are shooting. There ain't squat ammunition wise to be had from what I see.

A gun without ammunition is like having an expensive club.

When you get your new Savage it will have the holes in the receiver, on both sides. That lets the fire out the sides instead of back...lol

 

[westcliffe01]

Oh well... I just backordered some RL 15, some CCI 400 primers and some CCI #34 Mil spec LR primers. Hopefully I get it before winter... I am reasonably set for my 223 and 243 stuff (both for bolt guns only) but am now trying to set up a stash for my FAL as well as the 308 bolt gun.

The bolt gun at this stage will now only see the Lapua Palma brass for the rest of its life and the FAL is going to be fed the LC brass with the 175gr Match Kings. Speaking of which I need to get a pin gauge set ordered to determine what size locking shoulder I need for the FAL.

I'm still waiting on an NAA 22mag revolver I ordered in January... Said it was in stock at the time...

 

[SidecarFlip]

I buy all my firearms in one place, no exceptions, (well with the exception of the CVA Accura that I got at Cabelas on points).

I have a good friend who owns a gun shop and range just south of Detroit off I75. It's a haul for me but I like to patronize the same place and he always gives me a good price. Anyway, I've had 2 spare magazines for my 338 on order since January but again, no hurry. I'm not going anywhere...for a while.

All the 308's are primed and put to bed for now.

 

[westcliffe01]

Crap, Power valley first accepted my backorder (the items were clearly listed as not being in stock, but you could still buy them) then I called them today to check on whether they had "really" accepted my order as a backorder and was told that it had been canceled. No email notification, nothing...

It looks like this issue with powder had been anticipated back in 2010.

Loss of Smokeless Powder Greatest Threat to Keep & Bear Arms

quote
Washington, DC --(Ammoland.com)- Without ammunition, our firearms are just awkward clubs, and our cherished right to Keep and Bear Arms is worthless – literally worth nothing.


Let me explain this threat.
To the best of my information, there are only two plants in the United States that manufacture smokeless propellant to load ammunition for our firearms. All else is imported, from Canada, Scandinavia, Europe, Israel, and Australia primarily.
These two plants are both owned by giant defense and government contractors for whom sales of powder for civilian ammunition consumption is but a tiny fraction of their business.


One is the General Dynamics plant in St. Marks, Florida, which produces for Hodgden, Winchester and others, and the Alliant plant in Connecticut which produces for the Alliant family of companies and for the Lake City Arsenal (currently under Alliant management).

If Obama were to instruct his appointed Secretary of Defense to quietly lean on these defense contractors to quit selling smokeless powder for civilian consumption or put their next contract for an aircraft carrier at risk, I believe they'd bail on civilian powder sales in a heartbeat. And, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton could end smokeless powder imports tomorrow with a stroke of her pen.


Does this not seem to resemble the current situation pretty well ?


Is it not remarkable that not a single supplier from a location outside the US has been able to make good of a situation which would make them a LOT of money compared to regular business ? While I could understand that potential DHS orders could suck up capacity of domestic suppliers, why is it that the Fins, germans, Russians etc are not cashing in on the current crisis ?