30 Nosler vs 300WM vs 300PRC

[elkaholic]

Just because it doesn't blow primers in ADG doesn't make it safe. Most wildcatters use the weakest possible brass to develop load parameters to ensure safety with stronger brass.

You just cannot add 2-4% to a cartridge capacity and get the improvements you claim without adding pressure, that's simple physics. The fact no one been hurt again doesn't make it safe either.

Your designs have some merits but the extra speed isn't one of them in my book as your loads were all too hot in the 3 Sherman's I owned and none would do what was claimed with sane loads.

It's odd to myself and many others that you've continually claimed your loads are safe when questioned yet you've never submitted your designs for pressure testing, why is that?

Yep. The army runs their 300 PRC and their 300 Win Mag at over-pressure levels, too. They don't plan on re-using the brass, so if it won't blow the rifle up, and doesn't spit primers out of the pocket, they don't care. I've reloaded some of their 300 Win Mag brass, and it had to be sized twice to three times before it would chamber in my commercial rifle chambers. Some wouldn't resize enough, and I had to toss it.

Just because it doesn't blow primers in ADG doesn't make it safe. Most wildcatters use the weakest possible brass to develop load parameters to ensure safety with stronger brass.

You just cannot add 2-4% to a cartridge capacity and get the improvements you claim without adding pressure, that's simple physics. The fact no one been hurt again doesn't make it safe either.

Your designs have some merits but the extra speed isn't one of them in my book as your loads were all too hot in the 3 Sherman's I owned and none would do what was claimed with sane loads.

It's odd to myself and many others that you've continually claimed your loads are safe when questioned yet you've never submitted your designs for pressure testing, why is that?

Ive never said the case isn't capable of more pressure, and the case is the weak link. If Im running the exact brass as a 300 PRC considerably faster with no case issues, I'm just fine with that. There are people running the 30 SM all over, including South Africa, who don't know me from sasquatch and MOST work up their own loads and draw the same conclusions. So the fact that people want to whine about it every time something is posted, is not my problem!
No one is being forced to build ANYTHING and most of my clients are word of mouth, so I'll just be thankful for the people that like them and tell their friends. Also, I don't even know why I bother except there may be new people who haven't been exposed to the "ad nauseam", as you already admit!
Also, FYI, I didn't blow primers on Hornady either, but they got loose at 4-5 firings. This should come as no shock to most people!

 

[MallardAddict]

Ive never said the case isn't capable of more pressure, and the case is the weak link. If Im running the exact brass as a 300 PRC considerably faster with no case issues, I'm just fine with that. There are people running the 30 SM all over, including South Africa, who don't know me from sasquatch and MOST work up their own loads and draw the same conclusions. So the fact that people want to whine about it every time something is posted, is not my problem!
No one is being forced to build ANYTHING and most of my clients are word of mouth, so I'll just be thankful for the people that like them and tell their friends. Also, I don't even know why I bother except there may be new people who haven't been exposed to the "ad nauseam", as you already admit!
Also, FYI, I didn't blow primers on Hornady either, but they got loose at 4-5 firings. This should come as no shock to most people!

As is to be expected when asked why you refuse to pressure test your rounds to ensure your loads are actually safe you continually make straw man arguments that don't address what is asked and point to others doing the same as your proof.

Hell there are probably 15-20 guys here myself included that built rifles in your rounds, with your spec'd reamers and with your brass and never got anywhere near what you claim without pressure.

The fact you openly admit Hornady brass that is rated safe for saami pressures in the 300 prc won't hold up to your loads after 4-5 cycles clearly points that your way over pressure but your to blind to see or admit it.

I've run Hornady brass with book loads well over 10-12 cycles in saami rounds without issue. If your losing primer pockets in 5 loads your clearly too hot.

Pressure testing at an independent lab is likely not that expensive yet you refuse to do so while profiting off your reamers and rounds to me shows how little you care about your clients safety and tells me all I need to know about you sir.

 

[greenejc]

Who shoots precision with box ammo??
I certainly do not. Never have and never will.

Cheers.

Almost nobody. However, I've seen it done. I have an old modified (Synthetic stock and M14 muzzle flash suppresser added to the barrel) 1903-a3 that my younger brother put an S&K mount on and a cheap tasco scope 3X9 variable to hunt deer. At the time, he was a police officer at Pecos Texas. This rifle likes everything. The barrel is stamped with the US Army Ordinance stamp and a date of 8/43. He went to the Texas Counter-sniper/Swat class at Dallas/Ft. Worth. He took a match grade M700 in .223 Remington with really good glass. It was used, and he took the -06 as an after thought. On the 5th or 6th day, he shot the worn barrel out of the .223. Groups in the morning were o.5" with match ammo and 2. or bigger in the afternoon. He went from standing 2nd to 20th and the rifle would no longer qualify in accuracy for the class. He went down to Walmart and bought them out of 30-06 165 grain CoreLokt ammunition (his department wouldn't pay for ammo so he had to buy his own) and qualified the rifle for the class with it first, with an average group size of 0.65" at 100 yards, and finished the course with the -03, standing 3rd in the class. I still have and shoot this rifle. It groups 0.7" with Hornaday 165 grain bullets, and 0.75 or less with 168 through 200 grain bullets, usually tightest with Sierra or Nosler. But it will go inside 1" with most factory Remington loads, or tighter. I haven't tried any of the tricks I've done on my Rugers because its better than good enough as it is.

Ive never said the case isn't capable of more pressure, and the case is the weak link. If Im running the exact brass as a 300 PRC considerably faster with no case issues, I'm just fine with that. There are people running the 30 SM all over, including South Africa, who don't know me from sasquatch and MOST work up their own loads and draw the same conclusions. So the fact that people want to whine about it every time something is posted, is not my problem!
No one is being forced to build ANYTHING and most of my clients are word of mouth, so I'll just be thankful for the people that like them and tell their friends. Also, I don't even know why I bother except there may be new people who haven't been exposed to the "ad nauseam", as you already admit!
Also, FYI, I didn't blow primers on Hornady either, but they got loose at 4-5 firings. This should come as no shock to most people!

It doesn't . I've had primers get loose in Federal -06 brass after three or four firings that didn't get loose ever in Remington brass. Some brass is softer than other brass. If its safe in your rifle, its safe in your rifle. Although I haven't had any problems with Hornaday brass having loose primer pockets in any of my loads. I also don't push the limits in anything but the Whelen. Even there, I don't push the limits past the old reloading manuals before lawyeritis became a disease. These rifles are proofed for around 75 to 80000 psi, but they might not hold up well to a steady diet of 5 or 6000 ftlbs over the SAAMI safe pressures. If the bolt lift is stiff, I don't chance it. I stay well inside safe pressures in my loads. I don't care how fast the bullet gets there, just that it does, that its repeatable and that all rounds arrive in the same place within less than 1 minute of angle. If the bullet leaves at 3,000 fps or at 2600 fps, if it gets to the target consistently with the same drop at the same distance, it'll still do the job if its big enough, dense enough and heavy enough. If it arrives with enough energy at 800 yards and within an 8" circle centered on my target, it'll kill anything I need killed. It doesn't need to be a barn burner. But a 300 Win Mag is more than capable of doing that with heavy for caliber bullets at or below sammi maximum pressures. I'm sure the Sherman will also do it hands down. But I can get factory loads for my 300 if my handloads get misplaced on a trip say, to Canada. I can't do that everywhere with the PRC or the Sherman or the Nosler. Small town stores will have the 300 Win Mag or the 7mm Mag or the 30-06. It isn't which round is faster, better, has more range. Its which one is sufficiently accurate, available, flat shooting and easy to get reloading components for. I can't go into a big box store and get Sherman dies. I can't go into the local hardware store in No-Where Colorado and get a box of 300 PRC's. I can't get reloading data on your round in the latest Lee manual or the latest Speer manual etc. But I can do all of that with the 300 Win Mag.

 

[snox801]

not at all surprising. Ive reached 3300 with RL 26 and 215 Bergers before pressure was showing, and nearly that much wth N570. (28"barrel)

Mines a 26" barrel and know I have more in it.
But who wants to shoot Berger's? Thai is a hunting forum Remember.

 

[StanleyActual]

As is to be expected when asked why you refuse to pressure test your rounds to ensure your loads are actually safe you continually make straw man arguments that don't address what is asked and point to others doing the same as your proof.

Hell there are probably 15-20 guys here myself included that built rifles in your rounds, with your spec'd reamers and with your brass and never got anywhere near what you claim without pressure.

The fact you openly admit Hornady brass that is rated safe for saami pressures in the 300 prc won't hold up to your loads after 4-5 cycles clearly points that your way over pressure but your to blind to see or admit it.

I've run Hornady brass with book loads well over 10-12 cycles in saami rounds without issue. If your losing primer pockets in 5 loads your clearly too hot.

Pressure testing at an independent lab is likely not that expensive yet you refuse to do so while profiting off your reamers and rounds to me shows how little you care about your clients safety and tells me all I need to know about you sir.

Yeah, I don't know about all that. Rich in my experience and in many others is a pretty solid stand up dude. Great guy to deal with. They're folks out there gettin the velocities he's claiming and some who are not. Reloading is an individual sport and YMMV. If you wanna use his cartridges than do it. If you don't, don't. Don't make it a personal issue. Rich is good people.

 

[snox801]

The 30 SM gets compared to the 30 Nosler often but the SM does not get those velocities at normal pressures of the Nosler round so it's apples to oranges. Physics is still physics and the 30 SM can't defy those rules though people are free to believe and do as they wish.

As has been discussed ad nauseaum the better brass currently being used in the SM hides pressure better then factory Hornady brass. Same thing can be done in the Nosler but doesn't make it safe to do so. Most of the upper end SM kids are likely running at 70k per QL

Yes cause we all know quickloads is accurate.
Try punching in an absolute hammer and see where it gets you. It's just a guide. And how do you know most of use are not tuning hornady brass to find pressure then matching speed with adg? Some cases are just more efficient.
If I followed quick loads for my absolute hammers I'd be so far under pressure it wouldn't be funny.

 

[snox801]

Gotta d

Just because it doesn't blow primers in ADG doesn't make it safe. Most wildcatters use the weakest possible brass to develop load parameters to ensure safety with stronger brass.

You just cannot add 2-4% to a cartridge capacity and get the improvements you claim without adding pressure, that's simple physics. The fact no one been hurt again doesn't make it safe either.

Your designs have some merits but the extra speed isn't one of them in my book as your loads were all too hot in the 3 Sherman's I owned and none would do what was claimed with sane loads.

It's odd to myself and many others that you've continually claimed your loads are safe when questioned yet you've never submitted your designs for pressure testing, why is that

Gotta disagree. I'm more than will to bet yes some push pressure but I would say mine are very safe and probably well within "safe " pressure. Doing what the op wanted and I'd say safely also. His did exactly what he claimed to me. Second I wouldn't keep going to hornady brass I've had some blow primers and just in general crap brass that won't hold up to the loads on the lite side they post. So we should t go down that route. I've never met the man nor do I need to stick up for him. If his rifles didn't do what he says safely he would soon be outed. And you seem to be making the argument that a lot of respected builders and smith here don't know how to reload as many have come to the same conclusion that the loads are safe the same why they would win a 30 nosler or any other way. Maybe ask how rich finds pressure think you would be surprised it's how a lot of guys find it and it's More than primers and bolt drag.

 

[elkaholic]

As is to be expected when asked why you refuse to pressure test your rounds to ensure your loads are actually safe you continually make straw man arguments that don't address what is asked and point to others doing the same as your proof.

Hell there are probably 15-20 guys here myself included that built rifles in your rounds, with your spec'd reamers and with your brass and never got anywhere near what you claim without pressure.

The fact you openly admit Hornady brass that is rated safe for saami pressures in the 300 prc won't hold up to your loads after 4-5 cycles clearly points that your way over pressure but your to blind to see or admit it.

I've run Hornady brass with book loads well over 10-12 cycles in saami rounds without issue. If your losing primer pockets in 5 loads your clearly too hot.

Pressure testing at an independent lab is likely not that expensive yet you refuse to do so while profiting off your reamers and rounds to me shows how little you care about your clients safety and tells me all I need to know about you sir.

Ive had Hornady factory loads that destroyed brass quicker than what I often load! You're entitled to whatever opinion you have! Fortunately, for every person like you, there are 100 that see things differently in regard to the Sherman line and also how I treat people.
Merry Christmas to you and yours.

 

[greenejc]

Yeah, I don't know about all that. Rich in my experience and in many others is a pretty solid stand up dude. Great guy to deal with. They're folks out there gettin the velocities he's claiming and some who are not. Reloading is an individual sport and YMMV. If you wanna use his cartridges than do it. If you don't, don't. Don't make it a personal issue. Rich is good people.

Different rifles handle pressure differently. My son in law has a .308 Win in a Savage which will lock up on loads which are fine in my Remington 700 SPS Varmint. Loads that I use in an H&K won't shoot in it. None of them are at max saami pressures, or very close. Its just not good with anything past a medium load. It shoots factory loads without pressure problems, but not hand loads. Saami is a guideline. It gives you a base for maximum pressures but its generic. If his loads are safe in his rifle, they're safe in his rifle. If you're getting pressure signs in yours at lower charges, then his loads probably aren't good for you, and you should work up what loads are safe for your rifle. And safe load levels change with types of brass, primers, powder type, ambient temperature and brand of projectile. Again, just because it gives me pressure signs doesn't mean it isn't safe for his rifle. But that's not the question here. Oh, and remember that his rifle is a custom with a 28" barrel, giving him a 2" to 4" velocity edge with any load he shoots (read that as about a 75 to 175 fps advantage over a 24" barrelled rifle in the same cartridge). It could be as much as 200 fps over a 24" barrel and at least 75 fps over a 26" barrel. He's not out for his barrel length, especially if its a 'fast' barrel.

 

[greenejc]

Ive had Hornady factory loads that destroyed brass quicker than what I often load! You're entitled to whatever opinion you have! Fortunately, for every person like you, there are 100 that see things differently in regard to the Sherman line and also how I treat people.
Merry Christmas to you and yours.

I have too. But we shouldn't make this a contest. I'm sure your rifle and load combination is safe. Like I said in my last post, all rifles are different. And I don't really like Hornaday brass much. I bought some 25-06 and some .44 mag brass from them and had to ream the primer pockets to prime them. That spoke of poor quality control. Federal has always been problematic for me, too. I think its too soft and primers get loose after 3 or 4 reloads. But back to the subject: I still vote for the 300 Win Mag. Although if you want to give me a Sherman, I'll take it. Just sayin. Oh, and I've got something like 500 rounds already loaded for my 300's ranging from 165 grain to 200 grain loads. Again just sayin.

 

[greenejc]

By the way, Rebelguard, ER Shaw will make you a 300 Win Mag rifle with your barrel length, a twist of 1 to 8 (great for the heaviest Burgers), 1 to 10 or 1 to 12, with your choice of barrel diameter, and stock for under $1,200.00 with a Timney trigger installed. You can add accessories and make it more custom, but if you just want a good, accurate, basic rifle, semi- custom, Shaw will make you one. I still think the way to go is a Remington 700 Long range in 300 Win Mag and then accurize it if it doesn't already shoot inside an inch at 100 yards, though. But it will probably shoot that good out of the box.

 

[greenejc]

Ive had Hornady factory loads that destroyed brass quicker than what I often load! You're entitled to whatever opinion you have! Fortunately, for every person like you, there are 100 that see things differently in regard to the Sherman line and also how I treat people.
Merry Christmas to you and yours.

I forgot. Merry Christmas and God Bless to you and yours, too. And may you have great success.

 

[StanleyActual]

Thought this was interesting…

 

[Glenn Tullius]

With a 50/50 mix of water and isopropyl alcohol, my fireformed RUM brass has 114g of that mix.
I don't see it getting much over 3000fps with a 245g, even with the 4" box and longer seating depth. The 215g should surpass 3100fps with ease.
This is the way I have gone with all of my RUM based builds. My Edge was a great shooter, but it just wasn't fast enough.
The 300 RUM I have is peculiar, it gets an average of 3385fps with 165g TTSX, but the 180g TTSX only got 3080fps, supposed to be 3250fps.
If you can get 3000fps from a 245g in a SAUM based cartridge, then I'm gonna give this all up.
2 weekends ago, I ran my fireformed Winchester brass with 180g Accubonds and 81g of RE25, WLRM primers over the chrono. Average velocity was 3240fps, the barrel has just sped up, so I was expecting an increase, it went from 3160fps average.
Primers were a little flatter than normal, however, the same brass, pills and primer with H1000 showed a 40fps increase….does anyone else find this fascinating?

Cheers.

Interesting... my RUM does 3250 ave on the button with the 180 TTSX, 3550-60 with the 150's. Things that make you go hmmmmm?