28 Nosler runout issues

[bigedp51]

Hey there guys, I'm after some help with runout in my 28 Nosler loads.
After firing my case necks have around 3 to 4 thou runout. Re-sized brass necks have 4 thou runout. Loaded rounds have around 4 to 5 thou runout. Is it my re-sizing die?

Fourteen Reloading Presses Compared: Single-Stage Shootout
https://ultimatereloader.com/2019/04/08/fourteen-reloading-presses-compared-single-stage-shootout/
Orange = Bottom Score, Green = Top Score

 

[25WSM]

That's a cool chart. Really puts into perspective the difference in alignment and mechanical advantage of the different pressed.
Shep

 

[25WSM]

Measured to the 7 decimal. Wow
Shep

 

[Toydy]

Just turned the necks down more on 2 cases. Re full length sized, and ran the mandrel back through, light bit of moly inside the necks. I noticed much less pressure to seat the bullet in the forster die. Runout is now around 1 and a half to 2 thou. Is the forster die really tight in the necks?

 

[Blackhawk]

Hey there guys, I'm after some help with runout in my 28 Nosler loads.
After firing my case necks have around 3 to 4 thou runout. Re-sized brass necks have 4 thou runout. Loaded rounds have around 4 to 5 thou runout. Is it my re-sizing die?

The following is a list of questions posed for your consideration !
Since your dies are of a very high quality & the response's to your dilemma are all viable , I pose to you the following questions.

How old is your press?
How much play is there between your ram and the press frame?
Is your press itself of a reliable build?
Is it a single stage, a turret , or a progressive ?
Each press has inherent differences and perhaps issiues !( mainly alignment)
Is it cast , or of a composite aluminum metal? Older presses were constructed from steel while newer ones may be be made from a mixture of metal and aluminum.
Has it been properly maintained , with periodic cleaning, and lubrication?
Finally is the 7/8" x 14 TPI tapped hole or holes, in alignment with your press frame itself?
Are your experiencing any signs of play while seating your dies?
How old and what shape are your dies themselves in?
When did last take them apart for a deep cleaning?
How would you know about the alignment anyway?
Well if I have got you thinking about this which I hope I have please read on.
If your ram is showing any wiggle at all while sliding up and down in the frame you may be exhibiting signs of excessive wear.
if your turret (if you have a turret press) is exhibiting any play between the rotation of stations you again may have an alignment problem .
If your dies are stationary but your shell plate indexes between stations, dose it click smartly into place have any play before it stops indexing?
So take your press completely apart and deep clean and re lubricate all your components , as this is a good defensive measure.
Pay attention to all of your dies and there respective components and clean them as well if need be.
Now if all appears to be in order so far what I would do next is check the run out by indicating the bullets TIR on a run out gage. Perform this on a factory new round, as this will be your standard. However not all factory ammo is perfect and you may have to indicate a few rounds before selecting one for your standard. Pay attention and write down each case's run out and establish an average TIR. (write this down for further referencing)
As you have indicated you are experiencing a .004" TIR on a fired case but is that before or after a full length resizing operation?
Just for the heck of it check a case that has been fired but nor FL resized for run out (Total Indicated Runout or Reading)
How much run out you have now that your brass has been fire formed will indicate if you are experiencing any chamber reaming / alignment problems as this fire formed case has expanded to your chambers exact dimensions.
After FL resizing (I assume using a match grade die set with the correct neck tension bushing installed) make certain to trim to length then bump my shoulder to establish the -.002" , then finally anneal your brass.
Next turn your brass case necks O.D. to a -.0002" - -.0005" O.D. in order to true up your virgin or once fired without neck turning case necks run out.
You are finally ready to completely assemble your bullet and check the TIR.
If you are still having a run out of more than say .0002" to .0007" your dies would be suspect, however before we come to that conclusion I would perform the same reloading procedures that you are using by using the same set of dies, only on another press .
If you do not have another reloading press ask a fellow reloader that you trust if you can hand load several rounds using his quality press but your dies. (the press itself for the sake of comparison must be of reputable manufacturer and in great shape or if it is not find someone that dose has have one before proceeding any further)
Examine your outcome carefully and indicate your hands loads for run out !
In this manner you can determine if your problem lies with either your press or the respective die set and act accordingly.
In the case of a progresive or turret press use a high quality single stage just to make certain that your press itself is not the culprit.(Every reloader that I know has at least one good single stage press, usually for rifle ammunition)
Don't forget to bring along your shell holder.
OBTW shell holders also can show wear especially if you you use them in conjunction with power tools such as neck turning ,or case trimming operations that require the use of a shell holder.
In that light I always use just one shell holder exclusively in my press and spare ones I use for the afore mentioned procedures.
I really hope that this will help !
Just My 2 Cents Worth

 

[25WSM]

I must suck at reloading I can't even come close to.0002. I can't even get .0007.
Shep

 

[kfreeze]

Just turned the necks down more on 2 cases. Re full length sized, and ran the mandrel back through, light bit of moly inside the necks. I noticed much less pressure to seat the bullet in the forster die. Runout is now around 1 and a half to 2 thou. Is the forster die really tight in the necks?

I noticed the same thing with a redding fl die. The 28 case pushes noticably harder into the die and back over the expander ball than any other case I have reloaded for. It was less after I turned the necks though. Still not as easy as a 308 case though.

 

[bigedp51]

Below I replaced the Redding expander on my .243 full length die to reduce neck runout with a Forster expander.. It is no wonder why so many reloaders with Redding dies complain about expanders. Why drag the Redding expander through the neck with its greater surface area.

The Forster high mounted floating expanders reduce neck runout. The neck of the case is held and centered in the die when the expander enters the case neck. This prevents the expander from pulling the neck off center and inducing neck runout.

 

[Blackhawk]

I must suck at reloading I can't even come close to.0002. I can't even get .0007.
Shep
[/QUOTE Let me please qualify my following statements.
This web site has a combined wealth of knowledge as there are many individuals who freely and openly give their worthy advise. This truly is a godsend for anyone who is interested in the shooting sports and to the further expansion their of.
I for one would like to thank each and every one of you for your contributions !
Now down to the business at hand!
Using the Horandy Concentricity Tool and by making adjustments you certainly can bring your bullet to case mouth run out down dramatically everything else being equal.
Without going into details ( see U tube videos ) after you have deprimped , cleaned , ( don't forget the primer flash holes on virgin brass ) dried , FL resized , shoulder bumped , trimmed , champhered your brass , annealed and finally neck turned your virgin brass you are ready to completely assemble your ammunition.
Once this has been accomplished simply place hand load into the Horandy Concentricity Tool , and using the indicator which will be making a light contact ( use the supplied rubber O rings for the indicator shaft in order to accomplish this ) somewhere on the bullets Major O.D.( before your taper starts) , rotate the bullet and notice the high and low readings as you zero out your dial on the minus or low side.
Now again rotate the bullet , stop at your lowest reading which would be the minus side and turn the nylon adjustment screw which will be now resting on the bullet just before it's Ojive past your newly indicated zero, stopping on the plus side say .010" to allow for spring back and back off the adjustment screw allowing clearance on the bullet itself ( again refer to U-Tube Videos)
Now while indicating the bullet in its cradle notice your run out.
If it has changed again zero at the mean dimension while turning the bullet to indicate the lowest or minus reading and repeat the procedure until you have achieved your minimum amount of run out and you are good to go !
With a little hands on you will constantly be producing rounds that will be in the .0002" - .0007" T.I.R. range, noting most factory ammunition is between + -.001" T.I.R. ( that is what they accept as passable as they produce many thousands of rounds each day) You on the other hand are only producing ammunition in small controlled lots and therefore can afford to be particular !
Please note there are a lot of other variables to contend with as well.
Wear or runout on presses, dies, shell holders/ shell plates ,as well as grit (as noted in my earlier post) can play hell with your reloading !
Each item in turn must be checked , and either replaced or otherwise ruled out until you are satisfied that you are producing the best handload possible.
To that end there are many tools that can help you to accomplish that task. Do your homework and research before you decide on any future needs.
Bear this thought in mind !
By purchasing a well known brand of Reloading Press , one with an established track record and the best reloading dies that you can find you are more than 1/2 way home !
I.M.H.O. some items are just whims, while others are necessary in order to help you achieve your goals.
My Additional 2 Cents Worth !

 

[elf]

Here is a good read-
Go with the "O" — O-Rings May Reduce Run-Out When Sizing « Daily Bulletin

Here's an inexpensive procedure that can help you load straighter ammo, with slightly better measured concentricity (i.e. less run-out) on the case necks and bullets. Simply use a Rubber O-Ring on the underside of the die locking ring. This allows the die to self-align itself (slightly) to the case that is being sized. Without the O-Ring, if the flat surface on the top of your press is not perfectly square with the thread axis, your die can end up slightly off-angle. This happens when the bottom of the locking ring butts up tight against the top of the press. The O-Ring allows the die to float slightly, and that may, in turn, reduce the amount of run-out induced during case sizing. Top prone shooter GSArizona has tried this trick and he says it works: "Go to your local hardware store and get a #17 O-Ring (that's the designation at Ace Hardware, don't know if its universal). Slip the O-Ring on the die and re-adjust the lock ring so that the O-Ring is slightly compressed when the die is at the correct height. Size and measure a few more cases. You will probably see a slight improvement in neck concentricity as the die can now float a bit as the case enters and leaves it. This isn't going to be a dramatic improvement, but it's a positive one." We want to stress that adding O-Rings to sizing dies may help some reloaders, but we don't offer this as a panacea. Try it — if using the O-Ring reduces measured runout that's great. If it doesn't, you've only spent a few pennies to experiment.

 

[Blackhawk]

Here is a good read-
Go with the "O" — O-Rings May Reduce Run-Out When Sizing « Daily Bulletin

Here's an inexpensive procedure that can help you load straighter ammo, with slightly better measured concentricity (i.e. less run-out) on the case necks and bullets. Simply use a Rubber O-Ring on the underside of the die locking ring. This allows the die to self-align itself (slightly) to the case that is being sized. Without the O-Ring, if the flat surface on the top of your press is not perfectly square with the thread axis, your die can end up slightly off-angle. This happens when the bottom of the locking ring butts up tight against the top of the press. The O-Ring allows the die to float slightly, and that may, in turn, reduce the amount of run-out induced during case sizing. Top prone shooter GSArizona has tried this trick and he says it works: "Go to your local hardware store and get a #17 O-Ring (that's the designation at Ace Hardware, don't know if its universal). Slip the O-Ring on the die and re-adjust the lock ring so that the O-Ring is slightly compressed when the die is at the correct height. Size and measure a few more cases. You will probably see a slight improvement in neck concentricity as the die can now float a bit as the case enters and leaves it. This isn't going to be a dramatic improvement, but it's a positive one." We want to stress that adding O-Rings to sizing dies may help some reloaders, but we don't offer this as a panacea. Try it — if using the O-Ring reduces measured runout that's great. If it doesn't, you've only spent a few pennies to experiment.

Simply a great idea!

 

[25WSM]

How do you set your die up to give the precise setback when the die is not locked into a set position. Even as little as a 64th of an inch of rotation and your setback is wrong. Even on the seating die if it's not in the right spot your seating depths are going to be off and inconsistent. The problems the oring will create are worse than the little run-out correction it will give you. Run-out up to . 0025 or . 003 will not cause any accuacy issues. If you have more run-out than . 003 find out why and fix it. I have found out that more often than not it's the lock rings causing the issue not the top of your press. Just try putting a different locking on your die and see if your run-out gets better. I don't use any rcbs or Redding lock rings. You only get half the treads engaged when you tighten the set screw. I personally use the Hornady rings but whidden and Forster are good to. I have tested the lock rings in my lathe and found them to be off as much as . 005 so now I turn them in the lathe attached to the die I use it on. Most true up with the lightest truing cut I can take. The rcbs and Redding rings are always off. Just think about how they work and you will know why. One side of the ring is forced all the way to the root of the thread and the other side where the lock screw is has to be pulled as far from the root as it can get. I also have tested crooked lock rings to see if they made more run-out. They do but not as much as I thought I would see. I think when you size brass the pressure put on the thread of the die pushes it up so the thread tops all even out in the press threads. Probably why rcbs and Redding still put crappy lock rings on there dies. It just doesn't matter much.
Anyone who disagrees with these test I encourage you to do your own test. Then do what you think is best for you.
By the way Forster rings have been the straightest. And for good reason they use the top and bottom of that ring exclusively to keep dies straight in there own press. One other item is to make sure your shell holders are fully free floating in the ram. I take the heavy snap ring out of the ram and use an oring around the ram to hold the shell holders in. The shell holders are real sloppy this way and can line up with the die easier. The oring just keeps the shell holder from falling out when you remove your brass. These are just simple things that can help with run-out.
Shep

 

[Blackhawk]

Here is a good read-
Go with the "O" — O-Rings May Reduce Run-Out When Sizing « Daily Bulletin

Here's an inexpensive procedure that can help you load straighter ammo, with slightly better measured concentricity (i.e. less run-out) on the case necks and bullets. Simply use a Rubber O-Ring on the underside of the die locking ring. This allows the die to self-align itself (slightly) to the case that is being sized. Without the O-Ring, if the flat surface on the top of your press is not perfectly square with the thread axis, your die can end up slightly off-angle. This happens when the bottom of the locking ring butts up tight against the top of the press. The O-Ring allows the die to float slightly, and that may, in turn, reduce the amount of run-out induced during case sizing. Top prone shooter GSArizona has tried this trick and he says it works: "Go to your local hardware store and get a #17 O-Ring (that's the designation at Ace Hardware, don't know if its universal). Slip the O-Ring on the die and re-adjust the lock ring so that the O-Ring is slightly compressed when the die is at the correct height. Size and measure a few more cases. You will probably see a slight improvement in neck concentricity as the die can now float a bit as the case enters and leaves it. This isn't going to be a dramatic improvement, but it's a positive one." We want to stress that adding O-Rings to sizing dies may help some reloaders, but we don't offer this as a panacea. Try it — if using the O-Ring reduces measured runout that's great. If it doesn't, you've only spent a few pennies to experiment.

This rubber o ring idea is worth a try.
Simple as well as effective.