.270wcf vs 6.8 Western & 270 WSM

[sedancowboy]

Welcome to the forum! I run several 270 WSMs with fast twist barrels. For both the 270 WSM and the 6.8 Western to preform to their Max potential the bullet needs to be up out of the cartridge case. I run the 170 Bergers at 3.120 which my chamber is throated for. That is .020 off the lands. Neither cartridge can preform at their best with the bullet seated down into the case. The 6.8 is simply a shortened WSM case so they can seat the bullet out further and still stay in side a Short Action length. To accommodate the longer bullets they gave it a faster twist.
So to answer your question, If the WSM case is utilized to its fullest it will always out preform the 6.8 Western. If you are only comparing SAMMI spec cartridges in SAMMI rifles I would prefer the 6.8 Western. While a great cartridge the 270 WSM needed to be modernized and that is what the 6.8 Western is. You can't go backwards with SAMMI cartridges. In other words you can't start making 270 WSM cartridges with longer bullets that need faster twist barrels and still call it a SAMMI standard because it is NOT. Hence the 6.8 Western, problem solved.
Because I reload and have my own 270 WSM reamer then I have no need to go to the 6.8 Western. I too have dies and components for the WSM and so no need to change or chase something new.

 

[Western4444]

Welcome to the forum! I run several 270 WSMs with fast twist barrels. For both the 270 WSM and the 6.8 Western to preform to their Max potential the bullet needs to be up out of the cartridge case. I run the 170 Bergers at 3.120 which my chamber is throated for. That is .020 off the lands. Neither cartridge can preform at their best with the bullet seated down into the case. The 6.8 is simply a shortened WSM case so they can seat the bullet out further and still stay in side a Short Action length. To accommodate the longer bullets they gave it a faster twist.
So to answer your question, If the WSM case is utilized to its fullest it will always out preform the 6.8 Western. If you are only comparing SAMMI spec cartridges in SAMMI rifles I would prefer the 6.8 Western. While a great cartridge the 270 WSM needed to be modernized and that is what the 6.8 Western is. You can't go backwards with SAMMI cartridges. In other words you can't start making 270 WSM cartridges with longer bullets that need faster twist barrels and still call it a SAMMI standard because it is NOT. Hence the 6.8 Western, problem solved.
Because I reload and have my own 270 WSM reamer then I have no need to go to the 6.8 Western. I too have dies and components for the WSM and so no need to change or chase something new.

Thank you. I look forward to participating in the forum.

Yes, this it makes sense to me that the 6.8 Western is a more efficient cartridge. But the 270 WSM cartridge can hold so much more powder that it makes up for its shortcomings. I have lots of additional powder capacity in my cartridges if needed, and easily and safely reached the the factory 6.8 Western velocities without issue.

A big advantage in just rebarreling a 270 WSM with a high twist using SAAMI spec, the cost is minimal. Bought a Rem Varmint Barrel from Brux Barrels for $300, and $200 for gunsmith and muzzle brake. So for $500 I am shooting a 270 WSM wildcat [equivalent] version of "6.8 Western". And am achieving as good or better results than a 6.8 Western with factory ammo. As you correctly pointed out it may not be as efficient. But I achieved these 3000 fps velocities with less powder reference in the Hodgdon tables, significantly less. The question I am interested in knowing is how much more efficient is a 6.8 Western over a 270 WSM with high twist barrel using SAAMI Spec. Or is it really more efficient? I am not sure! I am easily pulling significant velocities using my Win 70 Short Action COL of 2.965". In my case I see no need to increase the freebore of my barrel and extend the action. I am getting absolutely great results. As this is primarily a hunting gun I will not be shooting more than 30 rounds a year with it, if it is not as efficient as 6.8 Western, I can live with that additional powder cost.

Again thank you for welcoming me into the forum.

 

[Eric Alexander]

Welcome to the forum! I run several 270 WSMs with fast twist barrels. For both the 270 WSM and the 6.8 Western to preform to their Max potential the bullet needs to be up out of the cartridge case. I run the 170 Bergers at 3.120 which my chamber is throated for. That is .020 off the lands. Neither cartridge can preform at their best with the bullet seated down into the case. The 6.8 is simply a shortened WSM case so they can seat the bullet out further and still stay in side a Short Action length. To accommodate the longer bullets they gave it a faster twist.
So to answer your question, If the WSM case is utilized to its fullest it will always out preform the 6.8 Western. If you are only comparing SAMMI spec cartridges in SAMMI rifles I would prefer the 6.8 Western. While a great cartridge the 270 WSM needed to be modernized and that is what the 6.8 Western is. You can't go backwards with SAMMI cartridges. In other words you can't start making 270 WSM cartridges with longer bullets that need faster twist barrels and still call it a SAMMI standard because it is NOT. Hence the 6.8 Western, problem solved.
Because I reload and have my own 270 WSM reamer then I have no need to go to the 6.8 Western. I too have dies and components for the WSM and so no need to change or chase something new.

glad you posted this. been trying explain this to a friend well invested in 270WSM. that he can rebarrel w fast twist but needs to grasp that the bullets need to reach forward ...no reason the 270WSM can't perform like 6.8

 

[Western4444]

glad you posted this. been trying explain this to a friend well invested in 270WSM. that he can rebarrel w fast twist but needs to grasp that the bullets need to reach forward ...no reason the 270WSM can't perform like 6.8

Eric,

This is why I posted my information to inform 270 WSM owners that there is an easy option for them to enhance their long range capability inexpensively. My last name is Western, so the day I saw the announcement I needed to have one. Ordered the barrel, muzzle brake and reamers the next day, and had a discussion with my gunsmith. He said it was ago and would work with me to rebarrel as a priority. Once he had the reamer and barrel in hand, he had the rifle to me in two days.

Again, die sets not available for a long time. Tried everything I could to get one in my hands on a 6.8 die set, and could not. Studied and compared the 270 WSM with the 6.8 Western. It was intuitive to me the 270 WSM cartridge has significant powder capacity to load to the 6.8 Western level. What we don't know is efficiencies. As long as I get the velocities I have, as a reloader, I know I can exceed the capability and accuracy of any factory 6.8 Western rifle with factory Ammo with my 270 WSM meeting SAAMI Specs. At a cost of $500 to rebarrel, I see no reason to add additional cost for to add more free bore to the barrel. With a Winchester and Remington magazine there is plenty of room for powder with the magazine COL to reach and exceed 3000 fps.

I am interested in details from others that have rebarreled their 270 WSM with a faster twist. Others must have done what I have and must have had the same success.

Jeff

 

[Western4444]

Not a gun smith or bullet designer, I know that on a Sammi chamber like mine the 170 berger is pushed back into the case past the shoulder junction therefore taking up some of the case capacity. As I stated in prior post, maybe a good Smith or bullet designer could tell us how much freebore a regular sammi 270 would need to get the bullet moved forward to take advantage of using more powder. Maybe instead of 2900 fps we could get to 2950 or 3000.. No matter it is shooting well enough as is.... but, with freebore I believe it would have even more long range potential.. 800 yards with a 170 EOL dropped a 6 point bull in its tracks... Bullet performed flawless.... Is this the be all, end all set up?? No it is just a great option to use a well designed 270 case. You just get a new barrel with a 1:8 twist.. Freebore to get long bullets out of the neck junction.. Simple. The amount of freebore I don't know.

Please see discussion on page 7 and 8. I am shooting Nosler 165 ABLR, 170 Berger Elite and 175 Sierra TGK out of a SAAMI 270 WSM with 7 1/2 twist and getting 3000 fps and above, and still have plenty of powder capacity left to get more without adding more free bore. I am measuring the throat and seating my bullets 15/1000 off of the landes, not to exceed 2.965 [magazine limit]. The 270 WSM case holds more powder than a 45-70 and as much as a 300 WSM, so there is plenty of room for a longer bullet. There could potentially be an issue with powders with a higher volume per weight. I have not yet encountered such powder. What is your seating depth for the 170 Berger Elites? Mine COL is 2.965". I think you and I are pretty much on the same thought track here.

 

[Eric Alexander]

Eric,

This is why I posted my information to inform 270 WSM owners that there is an easy option for them to enhance their long range capability inexpensively. My last name is Western, so the day I saw the announcement I needed to have one. Ordered the barrel, muzzle brake and reamers the next day, and had a discussion with my gunsmith. He said it was ago and would work with me to rebarrel as a priority. Once he had the reamer and barrel in hand, he had the rifle to me in two days.

Again, die sets not available for a long time. Tried everything I could to get one in my hands on a 6.8 die set, and could not. Studied and compared the 270 WSM with the 6.8 Western. It was intuitive to me the 270 WSM cartridge has significant powder capacity to load to the 6.8 Western level. What we don't know is efficiencies. As long as I get the velocities I have, as a reloader, I know I can exceed the capability and accuracy of any factory 6.8 Western rifle with factory Ammo with my 270 WSM meeting SAAMI Specs. At a cost of $500 to rebarrel, I see no reason to add additional cost for to add more free bore to the barrel. With a Winchester and Remington magazine there is plenty of room for powder with the magazine COL to reach and exceed 3000 fps.

I am interested in details from others that have rebarreled their 270 WSM with a faster twist. Others must have done what I have and must have had the same success.

Jeff

again, glad you posted your comment. Once folks strip away the propaganda and grasp the specifics, then numerous paths to performance present themselves. One wonders when, or if, manufacturers will begin providing faster twist barrels for the other .277s and .257s. It astounds me that Winchester continues to offer the .264WM in a 1:9 twist, while offering their 6.5PRC and 6.5C with a 1:8 twist. Maybe they are hobbled by blinders from the SAAMI standards and are missing the forest for the trees, too.
Keep telling your story.

 

[Moose47]

I went to my range today with my newly purchased Tikka 270 WSM. Roughtech rifle. Working with some Barnes 129 LRX and MagPro powder at 72/73 grains getting easy 1/2 MOA . For me I think Jack O designed the 270 rifle for this range of bullets and nothing more for North American game. If you want more, obviously the 30 cal series of rifles would work for most. Lastly I believe the 6.8 is filling a niche that just isn't needed. There are just too many other choices, as for the previous comments you guys are in a world of your own that want to modify factory rifles for what ever reason. If I want more than my 270 I will simply pick up my 300 WBY which I love.

 

[Western4444]

I went to my range today with my newly purchased Tikka 270 WSM. Roughtech rifle. Working with some Barnes 129 LRX and MagPro powder at 72/73 grains getting easy 1/2 MOA . For me I think Jack O designed the 270 rifle for this range of bullets and nothing more for North American game. If you want more, obviously the 30 cal series of rifles would work for most. Lastly I believe the 6.8 is filling a niche that just isn't needed. There are just too many other choices, as for the previous comments you guys are in a world of your own that want to modify factory rifles for what ever reason. If I want more than my 270 I will simply pick up my 300 WBY which I love.

I don't necessarily disagree. My deer gun is a 300 win mag. I appreciate the energy it delivers. In all honesty Winchester should have made a +P version of the 270 WSM. The 6.8 currently only has 3 bullets for ammo, that needs to increase significantly. I can say though the faster twist heavier bullets do produce a significant amount of additional energy at long ranges. I believe there are enough believers in the 6.8 Western that it will succeed. My 270 WSM (6.8 Western equivalent) with higher twist is going to be my deer gun this year. My initial test shooting I know it will hit with the same energy as my 300 win mag with less recoil and better accuracy.

 

[Western4444]

again, glad you posted your comment. Once folks strip away the propaganda and grasp the specifics, then numerous paths to performance present themselves. One wonders when, or if, manufacturers will begin providing faster twist barrels for the other .277s and .257s. It astounds me that Winchester continues to offer the .264WM in a 1:9 twist, while offering their 6.5PRC and 6.5C with a 1:8 twist. Maybe they are hobbled by blinders from the SAAMI standards and are missing the forest for the trees, too.
Keep telling your story.

I agree. As with pistols manufacturers could make +P versions of certain calibers. If guns and ammo are marked correctly there will not be a problem. Give us shooters options on what to purchase.

 

[Western4444]

Loading Update - 270 WSM with 7½ twist

This was also placed on the longrangeonly.com forum.

Continued fine tuning loads with H4831SC powder, safely working with velocities around 3000 fps. At that velocity none of the brass showed any signs of stress, and there is still room for additional powder in all cartridges if necessary. Easily reached the 3000 fps, maximum velocities seen for the "6.8 Western" (cartridge data or on any of the ammo boxes).

Load test were three (3) shot groups at 200 yards. My best group was with the 165 Nosler AccuBond Long Range bullet. I did add a fourth bullet using H4831SC, the 150 Hornady InterBond bullet. Results follow:

175 Sierra Tipped Game King – 2.965 COL Average Velocity 2910 fps. The vertical spread was great, less than 1". The horizontal spread was 2½", a little over 1 MOA. In tweaking seating depth and powder charge, I should be able to obtain a 1" group. With this 1 MOA Group, I feel comfortable hunting with this load, at least for deer. My maximum distance where I hunt is 400 yards, so this will be a fine load. But will continue tweaking seating depth and charge weight to get smaller group.

170 Berger Elite Hunter – 2.965 COL Average Velocity 2950 fps. The vertical spread was fantastic, less than 3/4". The horizontal spread was 2" (1 MOA). Again, in tweaking seating depth and powder charge, I should be able to obtain under a 1" group. I feel comfortable hunting with this load. Very good load but will continue tweaking seating depth and charge weight to get a smaller group.

165 Nosler AccuBond Long Range – 2.900 COL Average Velocity 3060 fps. Excellent group at 200 yards, less than ¾" group (0.375 MOA). This is my deer hunting bullet for this year. It preformed consistently in all testing. My next phase for this bullet, is test at 350 to 600 yards. Since my longest shot is 400 yards, I will focus on 350 and 400 yards. I already know how it shoots at 200 yards, yardage my rifle is sighted in at. Since I have a limited powder supply of H4831SC, I will only be focusing on long range testing of this Nosler bullet. Others bullets will need to wait until more powder becomes available.

150 Hornady InterBond - 2.880 COL Average Velocity 3125 fps. I need to rethink this loading. I had a 3½" group (1.75 MOA). I started with H414 powder and had the same results. Have any of you handloaded this round in a 270 WSM?

I also test two Sierra bullets (140 GK and 150 GK) using H414 Powder. Since my longest deer shot is 400 yards, most likely a 100 yard shot, these are two good back-up deer rounds. Both had great groups. Results follow:

150 Sierra Game King – 2.780 COL Average Velocity 3060 fps. Excellent group at 200 yards, 1½" group (0.750 MOA"). An excellent deer round. At 200 yards the group was about 3" higher on paper than the 165 Nosler Group. I will continue testing at 350 and 400 yards.

140 Sierra Game King HPBT – 2.740 COL Average Velocity 3060 fps. Essentially the same group as the 150 Game King, 1½" group at 200 yards. The Sierra GK HPBT is one of my favorite bullets. Excellent accuracy and efficiency.

In summary: I getting great results from my Winchester 70 - 270 WSM with a 7½ twist. I know I can obtain the same results or better as the 6.8 Western. Bullet seating depth is not an issue, no need to increase Free Bore. Current SAAMI specifications are fine for these high twist bullets in a 270 WSM (as long as your magazine can handle a little longer bullet – 2.965" in my Winchester 70 magazine). The Winchester 70s and Savages should not be a problem in rebarreling as their magazine can accommodate a little long bullet. The only question is potential efficiency … Is the 6.8 Western more efficient than the 270 WSM with a 7½ twist barrel? What I appreciate, the availability of factory ammo and brass availability for reloading. The only downside I see is 130 gr or less weight bullets do not shoot well in the higher twist barrel. Much better suited for 140 gr or higher weight bullets.

 

[Moose47]

Nice write up, however your last comment reinforces some of the best bullets for the 270WSM, Barnes 130gr at 3200..

 

[FEENIX]

I've been reading about this 6.8 W and the 270wsm and .270 wcf. ... and came across an interesting comment. The issue was about the new high BC .277 bullets and mentioned the 165ablr and 175vld needing 1:8.5 or 1:8 twist. OK, fine. Then the article tossed in this tidbit:

"The ole .270 WCF can't push these new, heavier bullets fast enough to make them useful, regardless of twist."

Fast enough? A .270 should have no problem pushing these out at 2600-2700 fps. What gives?

At best the 6.8 & 270 wsm add 200 fps over a .270wcf.
Is the author high? According to him, rebarreling my .270 with a 1:8 twist barrel is a waste of time. Doesn't ring true with me.
Comments?

Late in the game but my .270 AI with 30" Lilja 1:8" 3G propels the 175 Matrix at 2993 FPS with H4831SC. I have near 3100 FPS, but the group opened up and with pressure signs. Others are claiming an additional 100 FPS with RL-26 but have not explored it yet as it is .5-75 MOA at 1KY if I do my part.

 

[Western4444]

Late in the game but my .270 AI with 30" Lilja 1:8" 3G propels the 175 Matrix at 2993 FPS with H4831SC. I have near 3100 FPS, but the group opened up and with pressure signs. Others are claiming an additional 100 FPS with RL-26 but have not explored it yet as it is .5-75 MOA at 1KY if I do my part.

View attachment 270417

One can shoot these heavier hi twist bullets (165, 170 and 175 gr) in a 270 WCF, but accuracy will be terrible at best. And energy at 400 yards or more will be a fraction of a faster twist barrel keeping the high BC bullet stable. As correctly pointed out by Capt RB, higher twist is necessary to stabilize high BC bullets. I stand corrected.

 

[Capt RB]

One can shoot these heavier hi twist bullets (165, 170 and 175 gr) in a 270 WCF, but accuracy will be terrible at best. And energy at 400 yards or more will be a fraction of a faster twist barrel. The faster a bullet twist, the more energy the bullet retains at longer distances. I don't want to say it is simple math, but is a straight forward physics problem.

You need the twist to keep the bullet flying point forward. Twist rate has zero to do with retained energy.