260 w/130g VLD load developement

[zane243]

Yeah, from what I've heard and read they can be frustrating until you find the sweet spot. I fired some test groups of loads varying from 44.5g to 46g and they open up the higher the charge. I've got the bullet approx. .010 off the lands. I was surprised how open the groups were. The best was 44.5g at 1.6" (155 meters). Others were out to 3"!! That is from a bipod (not loading it...should I be??) and no rear bag). I think my form on the day had a bit to do with it so I'm going to load some 44.5g at varying depths (.010 in, 0, .010 off, .020 off and .040 off) to see what that tells me......

 

[BrentM]

I would personally not get too excited about the group until you find the max charge weight. If you at max and back off a little I would then try for some seating depth testing. I tend to start with a seating depth around .02 to .05 to keep pressure at lower level then .010 or to the lands. That way I find the max safe pressure first. If I get luck and find accuracy then that is a bonus.

A couple weeks ago I got lucky with a 7mm08. Used .020 as a depth to start and incremented powder up 1 grain from min to find the max. The rifle was very accurate toward the max charges and at that seating depth. I am hoping further testing proves easy.

 

[zane243]

Hi Brent
Whats your deffinition of 'max charge'? I am at 44.5g of AR2209 (H4350) which is above the book max. I have tested to 46g with no issues in regard to pressure but accuracy seemed to be suffering. That being said, 46g was not the max capacity of my case and I suspect I could load up to around 48.5g based on cartige capacity before the loads become compressed. I didn't see any point going above 46g when the groups were increasing with charge, is that a rookie error? Is it possible that the groups could come back in as I approach a charge closer to the cartige capacity?
Cheers mate

 

[BrentM]

Hi Brent
Whats your deffinition of 'max charge'? I am at 44.5g of AR2209 (H4350) which is above the book max. I have tested to 46g with no issues in regard to pressure but accuracy seemed to be suffering. That being said, 46g was not the max capacity of my case and I suspect I could load up to around 48.5g based on cartige capacity before the loads become compressed. I didn't see any point going above 46g when the groups were increasing with charge, is that a rookie error? Is it possible that the groups could come back in as I approach a charge closer to the cartige capacity?
Cheers mate

There is book max and there is cartridge max. I never exceed book max unless the case and action of the rifle are telling me everything is safe. I read primers, case head marks from the extractor, and bolt lift. I also chrono loads to see if speed increases or remains the same with increases in powder. On the other end of things I have had cases indicate book max is not achievable as I get pressure signs before I reach said max. For example, cratered primers, extractor marks, and sticky bolt lift. This is a NO GO area for me.

So if you are above max and not getting accuracy then my guess is you should back off as well and play with seating depth. .010 is nice place to start. My LR rifle likes .075 to .100 off the lands with Berger VLD Hunting bullets and 160 Matrix. It likes .010 to .015 with Match bullets, which have a shorter bearing surface. Just saying you never know what your rifle might like. Don't be affraid to jump that bullet though. You might be very surprised at the results. My 204 likes .100 as well. It shoots .15 MOA at .100 and .150 off. Crazy.

 

[farmer103]

Nice looking rifle you have there

I ended up with this for my 260 w/ berger 130 hunting vlds

OAL 2.875, no feeding issues in AI mag
44 gr Hodgons H4350
Federal 210M primers
2790 FPS, 20" tube

 

[RedSC]

Without looking at my notes, I think I was using 43.6 or 44.3 gr H4350 with 130 hunting VLDs depending on brass brand. My throat was cut so that I could put them in the lands at mag length, but I still jumped them .030. They shot great.

 

[djtjr]

You seems to be in a safe range. I use the same basic range and even a bit more with 140s so you should be ok but please watch for pressure. When I start out I find where I want to be seated for vlds it's usually into the lands as this will give max pressure for a given powder charge generally then I load 10 or so rounds building up from very conservative to not so conservative in small increments looking for the first sign of pressure (usuallyejector marks then primer flattening. I then back off the first pressure sign by about .5 grains for a cartridge like the 260 and use that as my max charge then go down from there in 5-9 increments of .3-.5 grains and shoot for groups you should find prob at least 2 accuracy nodes in there then chrono the good ones and take your pick. You can also kill two birds with one stone on the pressure test part by doing a ladder test simultaneously at 300+ yds which will likely help you find a good vertical node that you can recon firm with groups. Then play with seating depth to fine tune it and again in most cases if you start into the lands seating the bullet further into the case will decrease pressure. As for into vs off the lands there is a great thhread about getting the vlds to shoot well off the lands here on this site.

 

[peashooter]

My 260 is a single shot so magazine length was not in the equation. I had better groups the closer I got to the lands. I kept the final load .05 off so the bullet would not engage the lands as this is a hunting rifle and pulling a bullet out of the case in the chamber makes quite a mess.

To edit this post I omitted one 0. I am .005 off the lands with this load.

 

[zane243]

Okay, I have an update on the progress of my load development. I went through powder testing and settled on 44.5g of ar2209 (h4350). It produced the best (although less than ideal groups). I focused on that load and have experimented with seating depths from 0.010 in to 0.060 off lands. I cannot get these 130g VLDs to group. Even when I find what appears to be an accurate combination, retests of that load have produced 0.85" 3 shot groups out of 4 shots (if I discount the worst shot as a flyer. 4 shot group would be more than 1"). I seem to be getting one shot out of 4 that is inconsistent with the rest of the group.

To rule myself out, I shoot my tikka 223 next to the 260. Sub moa groups all day and thats an out of the box rifle. Id expect my 260 to out perform it everyday, but it hasn't done it once.

Bedding issue? Maybe but its a very ridged stock with 3mm clearence all the way to the first 2 inches of the barrel where it looks to be intentionally bedded. Its a machined bedding block. Action screws tightened to 60 inch pounds. To tight perhaps?

I have 8 bullets left from my box of vlds which I'll use to test 0.080 and 0.100 off the lands but then I'm out and I'd be surprised to see significant improvement.

Am I just flogging a dead horse with these 130g vlds? Is it just that my gun just doesn't like them?
Should I try the 140g VLDs or go away from them altogether?
What bullets do you guys recommend I try for long range hunting?
Should I try something else and if so what are your suggestions.

Cheers in advance

Nathan

 

[WildRose]

Okay, I have an update on the progress of my load development. I went through powder testing and settled on 44.5g of ar2209 (h4350). It produced the best (although less than ideal groups). I focused on that load and have experimented with seating depths from 0.010 in to 0.060 off lands. I cannot get these 130g VLDs to group. Even when I find what appears to be an accurate combination, retests of that load have produced 0.85" 3 shot groups out of 4 shots (if I discount the worst shot as a flyer. 4 shot group would be more than 1"). I seem to be getting one shot out of 4 that is inconsistent with the rest of the group.

To rule myself out, I shoot my tikka 223 next to the 260. Sub moa groups all day and thats an out of the box rifle. Id expect my 260 to out perform it everyday, but it hasn't done it once.

Bedding issue? Maybe but its a very ridged stock with 3mm clearence all the way to the first 2 inches of the barrel where it looks to be intentionally bedded. Its a machined bedding block. Action screws tightened to 60 inch pounds. To tight perhaps?

I have 8 bullets left from my box of vlds which I'll use to test 0.080 and 0.100 off the lands but then I'm out and I'd be surprised to see significant improvement.

Am I just flogging a dead horse with these 130g vlds? Is it just that my gun just doesn't like them?
Should I try the 140g VLDs or go away from them altogether?
What bullets do you guys recommend I try for long range hunting?
Should I try something else and if so what are your suggestions.

Cheers in advance

Nathan

Since it's a new custom rifle I'd talk to the maker. Your problem may well be overly tight action screws. Try backing them off to about 40 in/lbs.

More importantly though that 9 twist may just not quite be enough to stabilize the Bergers. Most of the people I know of shooting them in a .260 or other 6.5 have either 1-8 or 1-8.5 twist barrels.

I'd probably try the accubonds or sirocco's and see if they'll group better for you.

Is there a consistency to which shot of your four shot groups is the flier? Is there a significant shift in POI after your cold bore shot?

Have you followed the Mfg's recommended break in and cleaning program?

 

[brd922001]

I'm here to read on our progress with your 260. I have a few different rifles in 260 and try to read posts on the round. If I read your first post correct you have a 1:9 twist barrel, right? If so, Berger suggest a 8 twist or tighter for the 130 VLDs.

 

[BrentM]

Try 120s perhaps. Don't rule out deeper seating though. I have a couple rifle that really shine @ .100

 

[RedSC]

Try jumping them more.

The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a "sweet spot". This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.

Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle | Berger Bullets

 

[bcoving]

I would change bullets. In the last 5 custom guns I worked up loads with bergers only 3 of them like them. Its the same old story. 4 in the same hole 1 flyer. Or it will shoot a nice 5 shot group with a certain charge and you go home and load 50 thinking that's the load and go back to range to confirm and it shoots 3/4 inch groups. Just because its a custom gun don't mean it will shoot anything. You still have to find what it likes.