25 SHERMAN (THE LATEST LASER)

[PAGSDIII701]

Rich is right, you know…

 

[ButterBean]

Its one of my wildcats i chamber my Stalker rifles in. There is the 25, 26 and 27 Stalker at this point. All based on the 300 norma mag case necked down and then fireformed to my Allen Mag case design. The 25 Stalker was designed for those wanting speed. Will do a legit and comfortable 4000 fps with a 100 gr bullet weight. Also works well with the heavier bullets also but for those i generally recommend the 26 Stalker which will do 3500+ with 140 gr class bullets and +3400 fps with the big 156 gr bergers. All this out of a 26" barrel length in my lightweight Stalker rifles. The 27 Stalker is designed to be best served with the 170 gr berger which it will push very close to 3400 fps.

this pic shows the norma case on the left, necked down case in middle ready for fireforming and finished 25 Stalker on the right.
View attachment 383633

this pic shows two 25 Stalker rounds loaded with the 110 gr accubond on the left compared to the wildcat it was designed to replace, my old 257 Allen Magnum. The 257 AM is based on the 338 Lapua and the two have nearly identical case capacity. However, because of the dramatically stronger 300 norma mag parent case, the 25 Stalker and its siblings will add a solid 100 fps to the velocity of the old AM rounds and do it with twice the case life.
View attachment 383634

since the 300 norma parent case has the same head diameter as the lapua case, it greatly simplifies my build process as all my Stalker receivers can be ordered the same for all my Stalker, Allen Mag (lapua based ones anyway), Allen Xpress and Raptor wildcats as they now all use the same head diameter, just different length cases on the 300 norma, 338 lapua and Raptor parent cases.

I'm getting 4250 fps with a 124 Hammer out of a 300 RUM with 96g of H4350, Do you think the stalker will improve on that or will we meet the point of diminishing returns, I'm a speed freak

 

[wildcat westerner]

Hi Rich,
My lord, as flat shooting as my 6.5 Sherman is with Badlands bullets, this new cartridge of yours could both violate known rules of physics are far as trajectory is concerned and also make some gunsmith mighty pleased as to how often he will get to rebarrel/ set back this particular rifle! In looking down the first seven twist barrel I ever saw, it seemed to me it was threaded, and not rifled, the twist was so aggressive.

WW

 

[Fiftydriver]

I understand what you mean about defending everything Kirby! I don't pay too much attention anymore.
Its a waste of time. Just let the cartridges speak for themselves.
I wish you continued success!
Rich

Amen brother and you you the same as you know!!

 

[Earnhardt]

I'm getting 4250 fps with a 124 Hammer out of a 300 RUM with 96g of H4350, Do you think the stalker will improve on that or will we meet the point of diminishing returns, I'm a speed freak

Ok, first of all…
holy sh—!

Secondly….
ok, just holy sh__…

 

[Fiftydriver]

I'm getting 4250 fps with a 124 Hammer out of a 300 RUM with 96g of H4350, Do you think the stalker will improve on that or will we meet the point of diminishing returns, I'm a speed freak

Speed is only one factor. Real question is how far do you want to shoot? Inside 500 yards, raw speed will often win the day ballisitically. Past that, comparing the BC of bullets will tell you who wins at the end of the race as far as retained velocity goes. If a 30 cal and a 257 cal are both hitting at the same speed, the larger caliber will most certainly be more authoritative on big game. That said, there are some Hammer bullets for the 25 that would likely allow much more velocity even yet. Issue comes in using very light bullets in large case capacity rounds. As easy as the hammers start into the bore, one must use special powders not normally common with such a round or you can see some pretty wild velocity spreads. That usually means just using faster then normal burn rate powders. You get it right with the Hammers and they are amazing for sure for speed. Most of my wildcats are on the extreme side and generally benefit from a bit of resistance starting the bullet into the bore to improve powder ignition consistency.

however comparing your 124 gr HH 300 rum to my 25 Stalker with 100 gr ttsx, here is what it would look like numbers wise, both with 300 yard zero and 10 mph full value wind.

300 RUM 124 gr HH @ 4250
Yards….drop/drift(moa)…….velocity…….energy
300………0.0/-1.0…………..3540………..3200
500………-2.3/-1.7…………3083………..2426
750………-6.2/-2.4…………2548………..1658
1000…….-11.4/-3.1………..2069………..1093

25 Stalker 100 gr ttsx @ 4100 fps
300………0.0/-1.2…………..3360……….2506
500………-2.6/-1.9…………2926……….1900
750………-6.9/-2.7…………2438……….1319
1000…….-12.6/-3.4………..2000……….888

so in this direct comparision, drift is very similar out to 1000 yards, your 300 has an edge in drop, and velocity and a more noticable advantage in retained energy.

however if we compare my SLOW 7mm Allen Magnum loaded with the 195 gr berger at 3350 fps, lets see the numbers at the end of the race, not the start.

300………..0.0/-0.7………..3039………..3999
500………..-3.3/-1.1………2842………..3496
750………..-8.0/-1.5………2607………..2942
1000………-13.5/-1.8……..2384………..2460

in this comparision, your 300 does shoot flatter all the way out, however, bullet drop compensation is easy and predictable all the time. What is not is wind drift and being able to judge it dead on over the trajectory of the bullet.

at 750 yards my poky 7mm already has 1.2moa less drift then the laser 300 rum load. Interestingly enough its also almost 200 fps faster and energy wise its not even a comparison with a 1600 ft/lb advantage. At a full 1000 yards my slow 7mm has a +1300 fps advantage and nearly 2.5 times the energy payload…..

now of course your 300 rum can be loaded with other bullets to dramatically improve its long range ballistics. Point being though, raw velocity will get you to 500 yards and thats about it before things really start to take a fast nose dive.

Many love the extreme speed at the beginning of a race which i do as well, however in reality, its the retained velocity and retained energy at the end of the race that matter most for big game taking efficency As well as beating that devil, wind drift, at ranges past 500-600 yards anyway.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Would also be curious what your real world case life is at 4250 fps in the RUM? My Stalker will get minimum 8 firings per case and generally 10 or so.

 

[DUCKMAN11]

Speed is only one factor. Real question is how far do you want to shoot? Inside 500 yards, raw speed will often win the day ballisitically. Past that, comparing the BC of bullets will tell you who wins at the end of the race as far as retained velocity goes. If a 30 cal and a 257 cal are both hitting at the same speed, the larger caliber will most certainly be more authoritative on big game. That said, there are some Hammer bullets for the 25 that would likely allow much more velocity even yet. Issue comes in using very light bullets in large case capacity rounds. As easy as the hammers start into the bore, one must use special powders not normally common with such a round or you can see some pretty wild velocity spreads. That usually means just using faster then normal burn rate powders. You get it right with the Hammers and they are amazing for sure for speed. Most of my wildcats are on the extreme side and generally benefit from a bit of resistance starting the bullet into the bore to improve powder ignition consistency.

however comparing your 124 gr HH 300 rum to my 25 Stalker with 100 gr ttsx, here is what it would look like numbers wise, both with 300 yard zero and 10 mph full value wind.

300 RUM 124 gr HH @ 4250
Yards….drop/drift(moa)…….velocity…….energy
300………0.0/-1.0…………..3540………..3200
500………-2.3/-1.7…………3083………..2426
750………-6.2/-2.4…………2548………..1658
1000…….-11.4/-3.1………..2069………..1093

25 Stalker 100 gr ttsx @ 4100 fps
300………0.0/-1.2…………..3360……….2506
500………-2.6/-1.9…………2926……….1900
750………-6.9/-2.7…………2438……….1319
1000…….-12.6/-3.4………..2000……….888

so in this direct comparision, drift is very similar out to 1000 yards, your 300 has an edge in drop, and velocity and a more noticable advantage in retained energy.

however if we compare my SLOW 7mm Allen Magnum loaded with the 195 gr berger at 3350 fps, lets see the numbers at the end of the race, not the start.

300………..0.0/-0.7………..3039………..3999
500………..-3.3/-1.1………2842………..3496
750………..-8.0/-1.5………2607………..2942
1000………-13.5/-1.8……..2384………..2460

in this comparision, your 300 does shoot flatter all the way out, however, bullet drop compensation is easy and predictable all the time. What is not is wind drift and being able to judge it dead on over the trajectory of the bullet.

at 750 yards my poky 7mm already has 1.2moa less drift then the laser 300 rum load. Interestingly enough its also almost 200 fps faster and energy wise its not even a comparison with a 1600 ft/lb advantage. At a full 1000 yards my slow 7mm has a +1300 fps advantage and nearly 2.5 times the energy payload…..

now of course your 300 rum can be loaded with other bullets to dramatically improve its long range ballistics. Point being though, raw velocity will get you to 500 yards and thats about it before things really start to take a fast nose dive.

Many love the extreme speed at the beginning of a race which i do as well, however in reality, its the retained velocity and retained energy at the end of the race that matter most for big game taking efficency As well as beating that devil, wind drift, at ranges past 500-600 yards anyway.

These stalker cartridges would be a good topic in their own thread.

Like you said speed is awesome out to about 3/8 of a mile.

 

[ButterBean]

Would also be curious what your real world case life is at 4250 fps in the RUM? My Stalker will get minimum 8 firings per case and generally 10 or so.

That's about right

 

[ButterBean]

Speed is only one factor. Real question is how far do you want to shoot? Inside 500 yards, raw speed will often win the day ballisitically. Past that, comparing the BC of bullets will tell you who wins at the end of the race as far as retained velocity goes. If a 30 cal and a 257 cal are both hitting at the same speed, the larger caliber will most certainly be more authoritative on big game. That said, there are some Hammer bullets for the 25 that would likely allow much more velocity even yet. Issue comes in using very light bullets in large case capacity rounds. As easy as the hammers start into the bore, one must use special powders not normally common with such a round or you can see some pretty wild velocity spreads. That usually means just using faster then normal burn rate powders. You get it right with the Hammers and they are amazing for sure for speed. Most of my wildcats are on the extreme side and generally benefit from a bit of resistance starting the bullet into the bore to improve powder ignition consistency.

however comparing your 124 gr HH 300 rum to my 25 Stalker with 100 gr ttsx, here is what it would look like numbers wise, both with 300 yard zero and 10 mph full value wind.

300 RUM 124 gr HH @ 4250
Yards….drop/drift(moa)…….velocity…….energy
300………0.0/-1.0…………..3540………..3200
500………-2.3/-1.7…………3083………..2426
750………-6.2/-2.4…………2548………..1658
1000…….-11.4/-3.1………..2069………..1093

25 Stalker 100 gr ttsx @ 4100 fps
300………0.0/-1.2…………..3360……….2506
500………-2.6/-1.9…………2926……….1900
750………-6.9/-2.7…………2438……….1319
1000…….-12.6/-3.4………..2000……….888

so in this direct comparision, drift is very similar out to 1000 yards, your 300 has an edge in drop, and velocity and a more noticable advantage in retained energy.

however if we compare my SLOW 7mm Allen Magnum loaded with the 195 gr berger at 3350 fps, lets see the numbers at the end of the race, not the start.

300………..0.0/-0.7………..3039………..3999
500………..-3.3/-1.1………2842………..3496
750………..-8.0/-1.5………2607………..2942
1000………-13.5/-1.8……..2384………..2460

in this comparision, your 300 does shoot flatter all the way out, however, bullet drop compensation is easy and predictable all the time. What is not is wind drift and being able to judge it dead on over the trajectory of the bullet.

at 750 yards my poky 7mm already has 1.2moa less drift then the laser 300 rum load. Interestingly enough its also almost 200 fps faster and energy wise its not even a comparison with a 1600 ft/lb advantage. At a full 1000 yards my slow 7mm has a +1300 fps advantage and nearly 2.5 times the energy payload…..

now of course your 300 rum can be loaded with other bullets to dramatically improve its long range ballistics. Point being though, raw velocity will get you to 500 yards and thats about it before things really start to take a fast nose dive.

Many love the extreme speed at the beginning of a race which i do as well, however in reality, its the retained velocity and retained energy at the end of the race that matter most for big game taking efficency As well as beating that devil, wind drift, at ranges past 500-600 yards anyway.

You are spot on with everything you said and this is my 500 yard deer rifle, What a breath of fresh air here and thank you, I did a 25 STW years ago and way before I found Hammer Bullets and it was a disappointment

 

[Fiftydriver]

You are spot on with everything you said and this is my 500 yard deer rifle, What a breath of fresh air here and thank you, I did a 25 STW years ago and way before I found Hammer Bullets and it was a disappointment

When i started my shop over 20 years ago, the first two reamers i bought were the 6.5-06 AI and the 257 STW. The worst thing that ever happened to the 257 STW were some early articles that claimed a 100 gr bullet at 4100 fps from a 28" barrel. Early on that was the common thread. In reality, in a 28" barrel its more like a 3800-3850 fps rifle with that bullet weight. Created a load of frustrated shooters. Even in a full 30" barrel length the STW is a 3900 fps rifle. Which is amazing but when advertised numbers are not reached it leaves a bad taste in mouths….

i developed my original 257 Allen Magnum because i wanted that legit 4000 fps velocity with 100 gr bullets and it did this but needed a +28" long barrel to do it. I was much happier using the then new 156 gr uld rbbt made by my good friend Richard Graves, original owner of Wildcat Bullets.

when the 338 RUM parent case became nearly impossible to fine during the last political panic session, i decided to design a replacement for the 257 Allen Magnum and that was the origin of the 25 Stalker, a legit +4000 fps rifle with 100 gr bullets. However it will do this in a 26" barrel!!!

because of poor advertisement, the STW suffered but it did start a new trend in super 1/4 bores!!

 

[ButterBean]

When i started my shop over 20 years ago, the first two reamers i bought were the 6.5-06 AI and the 257 STW. The worst thing that ever happened to the 257 STW were some early articles that claimed a 100 gr bullet at 4100 fps from a 28" barrel. Early on that was the common thread. In reality, in a 28" barrel its more like a 3800-3850 fps rifle with that bullet weight. Created a load of frustrated shooters. Even in a full 30" barrel length the STW is a 3900 fps rifle. Which is amazing but when advertised numbers are not reached it leaves a bad taste in mouths….

i developed my original 257 Allen Magnum because i wanted that legit 4000 fps velocity with 100 gr bullets and it did this but needed a +28" long barrel to do it. I was much happier using the then new 156 gr uld rbbt made by my good friend Richard Graves, original owner of Wildcat Bullets.

when the 338 RUM parent case became nearly impossible to fine during the last political panic session, i decided to design a replacement for the 257 Allen Magnum and that was the origin of the 25 Stalker, a legit +4000 fps rifle with 100 gr bullets. However it will do this in a 26" barrel!!!

because of poor advertisement, the STW suffered but it did start a new trend in super 1/4 bores!!

You slobbered a bib full right there ShoNuff

 

[DUCKMAN11]

@elkaholic would a 25 sherman reamer clean up a standard 25-06 rem chamber or would you need to set the barrel back?

 

[elkaholic]

@elkaholic would a 25 sherman reamer clean up a standard 25-06 rem chamber or would you need to set the barrel back?

I would have to check the check neck diameter of the 26-06 but worse case, it would only be a couple threads