2 shots touching with one flyer possible answer

[CNY Yote Hunter]

Interested for some field tests with anyone who has a rifle that does this. I read a lot of forums where this question gets asked and consistently see the go to answers of all the basics, check rings, rails, stocks etc. I have one rifle that has shown this characteristic and have possibly just solved it. Said rifle is a savage model 25 walking varminter in 17 hornet. This rifle has done this since new and given me a run for trying to correct it until I stumbled upon this. I've had 2 known good scopes on it, bedded in a different stock, tried torque tuning the action screws and nothing has helped. Played with every possible seating depth and powder/ charge I can think of or find. Still 2 shots touch and one is off. Well…. One thing I have never tried is consistently shooting one round at a time from the mag. I have always just loaded 3-4 rounds and shot groups. Having said this, if I do load one round at a time into the mag the problem goes away, i thought this was a fluke but have shot 20, 3 shot groups and confirmed. They all touch or same hole at 100. Same day, in between test groups I also loaded the mag with 3 rounds and sure enough, 2 touching and 1 flyer! My flyer is never extreme, groups always 1" or under but 2 touch and one always off. So I'd like to hear from some others on this, personal experience or input. Is the magazine pressure on the bolt changing the harmonics that much to cause this!? Is the bolt that sloppy, lack of better term? I would not believe the spring in that mag would be able to assert enough force onto that bolt to change anything but what I am seeing is making me question this. Hoping others give it a try and see if this cures their issues as well. Thanks all in advance for any insight

 

[cohunt]

I've never heard or seen this in a bolt gun before-- which of the 3 shots is the flyer? Always the sme one?

I have seen this in a lever gun with tubular magazine-- but the mag presses right on the barrel and changes barrel harmonics -- never heard of pressing on the bolt changes harmonics

Interesting, I wonder if you had another shooter try to see if he can duplicate the results with your gun--- without knowing your opinion of what it's doing

 

[26Reload]

Hmmm
I like to hear second shooter results of single fed and mag fed also...
Maybe the recoil...resetting the oal of mag round....how much neck tension is used....
Curiosity kills more varmits...

 

[CNY Yote Hunter]

Hmmm
I like to hear second shooter results of single fed and mag fed also...
Maybe the recoil...resetting the oal of mag round....how much neck tension is used....
Curiosity kills more varmits...

Sorry I left this out but thank you for bringing this up, neck tension is set at .002 give or take a touch but 1 1/2- 2 thousandths for the loads tried.

 

[CNY Yote Hunter]

I've never heard or seen this in a bolt gun before-- which of the 3 shots is the flyer? Always the sme one?

I have seen this in a lever gun with tubular magazine-- but the mag presses right on the barrel and changes barrel harmonics -- never heard of pressing on the bolt changes harmonics

Interesting, I wonder if you had another shooter try to see if he can duplicate the results with your gun--- without knowing your opinion of what it's doing

Not at all, could be the 1st and then I think cold bore but not the case at all. The next time the first 2 could touch and on and on. Barrel can be cooled between shots or warm and results are the same. It's really extremely random. I actually just got back from the range and showed a friend as well. He was also able to duplicate it but I did tell him about it before hand, he is an honest guy so I don't think that would matter about telling him 1st. We are both dumbfounded by this but at the same time I'm happy and hoping this solves a long asked question by many.

 

[Tucker65]

A buddy of mine built a 25-06AI to shoot 131gr Blackjack bullets. He was using a Remington 700 action with a detachable magazine bottom metal. He was having the same sort of issues with fliers when doing initial load development. He could shoot 2 or 3 shots into a nice little pile and then it would flip one out of the group. He was shooting groups with all the rounds fed from the magazine. I mentioned trying to see what would happen if he just loaded them one at a time without the magazine and when he did that the fliers went away. What he found out was the magazine had quite a bit of slop side to side. We think that maybe this was loading the bolt funny depending on how the magazine was pushing the next shell up into the bolt. He made some shims and attached them to the magazine and the fliers went away.

 

[CNY Yote Hunter]

A buddy of mine built a 25-06AI to shoot 131gr Blackjack bullets. He was using a Remington 700 action with a detachable magazine bottom metal. He was having the same sort of issues with fliers when doing initial load development. He could shoot 2 or 3 shots into a nice little pile and then it would flip one out of the group. He was shooting groups with all the rounds fed from the magazine. I mentioned trying to see what would happen if he just loaded them one at a time without the magazine and when he did that the fliers went away. What he found out was the magazine had quite a bit of slop side to side. We think that maybe this was loading the bolt funny depending on how the magazine was pushing the next shell up into the bolt. He made some shims and attached them to the magazine and the fliers went away.

Thank you for the reply, this is interesting and I have not looked at that at all. I'll have to get the feeler gauges out and check the gap from side to side and try and even it up a bit to see if this will work for mine. It would make sense with the randomness of what I see depending on which way the mag shifts while closing the bolt unknowingly putting a pressure from the right to left persay. I will definitely give this a try and repost with results

 

[nealm66]

A 17 hornet sounds really cool

 

[Smoothie25]

That's interesting. I have a rifle that consistently has the first two shots touching and the third a 1/2-1" off. My assumption was barrel heating up b/c it's a shorter barrel. I'll try loading one at a time next time and will report back.

 

[emp1953]

I would try the single fed round test. But then again I can't see there being any recoil in a .17 hornet not enough to effect the rounds in the magazine.

 

[Philward]

If it's feeding from the magazine that is the cause, could be deforming bullet tip slightly. I don't see a little slop in magazine causing misalignment to bolt being the total cause of the flyer, unless something is happening to the bullet on the way into chamber.

 

[michaelfelix13]

Interesting. I am just a novice. Can anyone simply explain how a mag can effect the slight accuracy of a shot.does the cartridge get load at a very slight angle?

 

[emp1953]

Interesting. I am just a novice. Can anyone simply explain how a mag can effect the slight accuracy of a shot.does the cartridge get load at a very slight angle?

In cartridges with a fair amount of recoil, I've seen it in 30-06, the cartridges in the magazine can be driven into the front of the magazine during recoil. This can cause deformation of the exposed bullet tip or in some cases drive the bullets back into the case which will play havoc with accuracy.

 

[derfssor]

Over the 40 years of shooting, I have had my fare shares of rifles that have had the flyer problems. I have experienced that 75% of them would correct this problem by going to flat base bullets mainly Hornady. For some unknown reason, i have found some rifles just do not like boat tail or long ojive bullets. Try going back to cup@core flat base Nosler or Hornady bullets and see if you get the same problrm. Chances are good that it will straighten out. If not get your chamber and throat checked. Good luck!