195 grain 7mm Berger - How Much Cartridge Will it Need?

[MudRunner2005]

That's another reason why I don't use H1000 anymore. Too early pressure signs. Right now I'm at 71gr of 7828 SSC, and no pressure signs, and I'm just a hair under 3,000 fps with a 180 Hybrid out of a 26" factory barrel. I don't know of a 7mm Rem Mag that can hang anywhere near that with those same rifle specs, and I'm one of the biggest 7mm RM fans there is.

Since I'm apparantly full of ****...Please explain to me where you BELIEVE a 7mm RUM will reach pressure signs with a 180gr bullet....Since you don't have one.

If I'm full of crap, prove me wrong. I showed you my photographical evidence, and told my personal experiences with all 3 7mm calibers.

 

[Edd]

I'm not sure what your point is but if you are trying to prove that less powder gets you the same velocity, I'll help you out. Using the same reference and the same powder and bullet you used, a 7mm Weatherby will equal the performance of a 7mm STW while using about 6% less powder.

 

[MudRunner2005]

I'm not sure what your point is but if you are trying to prove that less powder gets you the same velocity, I'll help you out. Using the same reference and the same powder and bullet you used, a 7mm Weatherby will equal the performance of a 7mm STW while using about 6% less powder.

Maybe, but remember, I'm nowhere near done ladder testing yet....I still have plenty more room to go. Whereas the 7mm Wby would be topped-out in a 26" tube.

 

[Edd]

Whereas the 7mm Wby would be topped-out in a 26" tube.

Based on what?

 

[MudRunner2005]

Based on what?

While the 7mm Roy is a very efficient cartridfge, I don't see any possible way a 7mm Wby (VERY similar case and capacity to 7mm RM) is going to get 7mm STW performance in a 26" barrel. 28" or longer...Most definitely. But if you equal the playing field and put a 28" or longer on a STW, then it will still out-shine it. The only difference between 7mm Wby and the 7mm RM is the venturi shoulder, and the walls are slightly less tapered. It actually has a slightly longer neck, which helps keep capacity similar to the 7mm RM despite it's wider walls.

 

[cohunter14]

That's another reason why I don't use H1000 anymore. Too early pressure signs. Right now I'm at 71gr of 7828 SSC, and no pressure signs, and I'm just a hair under 3,000 fps with a 180 Hybrid out of a 26" factory barrel. I don't know of a 7mm Rem Mag that can hang anywhere near that with those same rifle specs, and I'm one of the biggest 7mm RM fans there is.

Since I'm apparantly full of ****...Please explain to me where you BELIEVE a 7mm RUM will reach pressure signs with a 180gr bullet....Since you don't have one.

If I'm full of crap, prove me wrong. I showed you my photographical evidence, and told my personal experiences with all 3 7mm calibers.

Mud, I knw you believe you are the end-all be-all when it comes to 7mm's, but just because I don't own one, like you, doesn't mean I don't have experience with one, haven't shot one, or haven't seen the numbers. Not that I need to justify this, but how about over 3,300fps with a 160 Accubond in a bone-stock Rem 700? The owner never did a ladder test because the first load shot so well, but I am guessing there is still velocity to be had there. I haven't heard of an STW doing that. Per your post above, there have been multiple people on this site getting close to 3,000fps with a 180 hybrid out of a 7mag BTW.

While the 7mm Roy is a very efficient cartridfge, I don't see any possible way a 7mm Wby (VERY similar case and capacity to 7mm RM) is going to get 7mm STW performance in a 26" barrel. 28" or longer...Most definitely. But if you equal the playing field and put a 28" or longer on a STW, then it will still out-shine it.

This right here answers your own question on 7 STW vs 7 RUM. If you go side by side and load them up to each of their own potential, the RUM will be faster than the STW, just asthe STW will be faster than the Wby.

Mud, just so you know, I am not calling you full of sh**. You bring a lot to this site and have a bunch of knowledge. I was simply saying that what you said about them being the same ballistically is not true, and you know it isn't.

 

[Demon061]

almost makes me want a 7

 

[dragman]

When the 195 shows up (probably the same time I catch big foot) I will be shooting it in my pitiful little .284 and probably pushing it around the 2800-2850 mark. With the inherent accuracy of that cartridge and barrel life it will make a great all around rifle out too 1 mile.
gun)
Now I know I will get flamed for it but that's ok.

 

[thekyrifleman]

Interesting discussion!!. My $.02 coming from a combined 70+ years of shooting the 7RM and 7STW. 48 for the RM and 22+ for the STW. There is no way the smaller case will catch the StW. Particularly since they have dumbed down the 7RM. I have loaded H4831 and 140 Sierra Pro Hunter in a Rem 700 since the early sixties.....powder was sold in one pound paper bags for $.75/lb....the load is in the range of the early Speer books and is 5-7 gr over what any of the reloading manuals of today suggest. Forget the supposed "pressure surge".....point is, I got 3000 fps nowhere near Nosler's claim of 3300 fps with a 140 grainer. Today with the "faster" H4831, I still get 3000 fps, and after 10 loadings cases still look great. Now, I don't routinely go that far, just sayin'. The STW will run with any 7 available given equal situations. Look at the pressures shown for the RUM, 65000 psi........most STW loads approach that but do not get there. I ran Simpson's original publicised loads and thought nothing of it until Jamison wrote his ST Feb 1996 article detailing the pressures generated with the loads Simpson had published.. So I learned that with 88 grains of H1000 and 140 NBT's, I was in the 70,000 plus range. Obviously I backed off in a hurry. Point being my Rem 700 ate those loads like a frog after bugs!!! I have read probably every article written on these two calibers plus my own personal experience over almost 5 decades.........it makes a great discussion that cannot come to a definitive conclusion. I am in utter disbelief when I see velocity numbers that are claimed for these cartridges, for that matter, accuracy claims also. Any how, my $.02, just sayin'

 

[dragman]

Shooters when it comes to loading and what's "right" come into 3 category's IMHO
1- hunters that load to box magazine length and maximize what will work across the board and in all temps. This is safe and can be excellent but doesn't let you maximize what the cartridges can do.

2- bench rest guys who look for the most forgiving load usually below max by 5-10% as they want the absolute most consistent.

3- long range ground hog or woodchuck shooters (at least the ones I know) will maximize what they can get out of a cartridge. Its no big deal for them to have 4 or 5 different loads to run out of a gun and depending on temp use the one that matches the program for that day.

That's how is think sometimes you see a cartridge that has such a wide (max) speed for a given bullet. That or people just lie.

 

[MudRunner2005]

Interesting discussion!!. My $.02 coming from a combined 70+ years of shooting the 7RM and 7STW. 48 for the RM and 22+ for the STW. There is no way the smaller case will catch the StW. Particularly since they have dumbed down the 7RM. I have loaded H4831 and 140 Sierra Pro Hunter in a Rem 700 since the early sixties.....powder was sold in one pound paper bags for $.75/lb....the load is in the range of the early Speer books and is 5-7 gr over what any of the reloading manuals of today suggest. Forget the supposed "pressure surge".....point is, I got 3000 fps nowhere near Nosler's claim of 3300 fps with a 140 grainer. Today with the "faster" H4831, I still get 3000 fps, and after 10 loadings cases still look great. Now, I don't routinely go that far, just sayin'. The STW will run with any 7 available given equal situations. Look at the pressures shown for the RUM, 65000 psi........most STW loads approach that but do not get there. I ran Simpson's original publicised loads and thought nothing of it until Jamison wrote his ST Feb 1996 article detailing the pressures generated with the loads Simpson had published.. So I learned that with 88 grains of H1000 and 140 NBT's, I was in the 70,000 plus range. Obviously I backed off in a hurry. Point being my Rem 700 ate those loads like a frog after bugs!!! I have read probably every article written on these two calibers plus my own personal experience over almost 5 decades.........it makes a great discussion that cannot come to a definitive conclusion. I am in utter disbelief when I see velocity numbers that are claimed for these cartridges, for that matter, accuracy claims also. Any how, my $.02, just sayin'

Thank you for reinforcing what I was saying earlier in this thread. And your many decades of experiences trumps my 12+ years with these calibers. Your input is greatly appreciated.

I need to get QuickLoad software....I have no idea what the pressures are with my STW loads with the 180 Hybrids, but I know with 71gr of 7828 SSC I have no pressure signs and am just a frog's hair under 3,000 fps out of a 26" barrel. That has been verified by my MagnetoSpeed V2.

My 7mm RemMag's hunting load is a 168 VLD over 65 grains of 7828 SSC, and it's pushing it 3,115 fps average out of a 26" barrel. Also MSV2 verified.

Which leads me to believe I still have a fair bit higher I can push the 180's in the STW.

Thanks again for your input.

 

[cohunter14]

Which leads me to believe I still have a fair bit higher I can push the 180's in the STW.

I would assume the same thing Mud...not saying that it is safe or not well above max, but with the number of guys saying they are getting 3,000fps in 7mags, I would think you should be able to get well over that while still keeping things at a reasonable level.

 

[dragman]

I would assume the same thing Mud...not saying that it is safe or not well above max, but with the number of guys saying they are getting 3,000fps in 7mags, I would think you should be able to get well over that while still keeping things at a reasonable level.

with a .188 freebore and coated bullets I have gotten too 3000fps out of a straight 284 and safely it was at the max but wasn't dangerous. so YES with the right combo I would think the 7mm and really the 7STW should be able to do a lot better.

 

[thekyrifleman]

Thanks Mudd,

First, to all on this thread, after reading my post, it sounds rather know it all and that is the last thing I want to project!!! Just a lot of years of shooting and a quite passionate feeling for both these calibers, sometimes it comes across rather strong...IMO if we could all put strain gauges on our rifles, the obvious would become apparent....each is its own....I have never used Quickload but have eagerly read data generated and published by others....only a guideline?? It seems we are still back to bolt lift, primer condition, head expansion, etc. Bob Hagel in his book "Game Loads and Ballistics for the American Hunter" says keep going until you get some stiff bolt lift and
then back off a couple of grains.....7RM loads he posts would probably turn us all pale, but I have gone there with my RM as mentioned in my last post and then I had a true magnum. Here's a guy that has participated in the harvest of some 1000 elk!!! Not to mention all other types of game. Again, just sayin'.