105g hunting vld's 6mm

Edd I wasnt trying to make them sound like a bad bullet if i made it sound like that im sorry. The 105gr berger hunting VLDs are a great bullet they transfer energy very well into the animal. If i made it sound other wise im very sorry. i was just giving some example as he was asking about if they would be good for game like large white tails. I have also shot deer with them that have had big wound channels and no meat damage at all. when i shot that muley it was very close and those VLDs just acted like a varmint bullet destroying meat. I use them in that 6mm-06 still becuase they put game down quick!
 
The problem is impact velocity vs bullet construction.

My view is that hunting (deer sized game) with high velocity calibers (such as 243) should be done with premium grade bullets built to handle that sort of impact velocity, and there are many to choose from in this caliber. Standard / Match bullets will fragment at high impact speeds and there is nothing that you can do to stop that from happening.

If you're going to hunt with standard grade / match bullets, then you've got to control your impact velocity and ideally it should be 2400 fps or less to get any sort of controlled expansion, and the only way to control your impact velocity is to reduce your muzzle velocity or to increase the range to your target.

Bullet selection is specifically important when hunting deer sized game with a small caliber like the 243, where you really do need that bullet to stay together as far as possible (and loose as little weight as possible) while it traverses through the animal in order to have enough momentum to create a good wound canal.

Have a blast.
 
I shot a jurassic (for me anyways) mulie buck last year at 400-440 yards. ( I don't remember exactly how far.) Either way, I was shooting the 105 VLD out of my AR10T .243 1 in 10 twist at 3000 fps. I know, that they shouldn't work, but they do...

Anyhow, I shot this guy in his bed. The first and second shot went behind the shoulder, at least as much as I could see from the angle he was at, and the next went through his fat neck. The first shot killed him, I just kept shooting till there wasn't any more movement. (That's what's real nice about an autoloader!) I didn't feel like climbing down into the canyon any further to collect him.

Wound channels were exactly as I expected. The only exit was the neck shot. I'm thinking he would have weighed right at 300 lbs. according to the butcher's scale in the garage. We weighed him field dressed. If the 105's shoot in your rifle, you don't have to look any further. If not, try the 95 VLD's. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a bull behind the shoulder with one either.
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Len,

I want to try the 115 vld in my 8 twist 6mm imp. Berger says 7 twist, do you think the 8 twist will stabilize them.

Thanks, :)

Jim
 
The problem is impact velocity vs bullet construction.

My view is that hunting (deer sized game) with high velocity calibers (such as 243) should be done with premium grade bullets built to handle that sort of impact velocity, and there are many to choose from in this caliber. Standard / Match bullets will fragment at high impact speeds and there is nothing that you can do to stop that from happening.

If you're going to hunt with standard grade / match bullets, then you've got to control your impact velocity and ideally it should be 2400 fps or less to get any sort of controlled expansion, and the only way to control your impact velocity is to reduce your muzzle velocity or to increase the range to your target.

Bullet selection is specifically important when hunting deer sized game with a small caliber like the 243, where you really do need that bullet to stay together as far as possible (and loose as little weight as possible) while it traverses through the animal in order to have enough momentum to create a good wound canal.




Have a blast.
I HIGHLY suggest you have a closer look at the thread Eric Stecker of Berger is in, regarding Barnes vs. Berger. The issue of premium controlled expansion bullets vs. match bullets has been hashed, hashed again and rehashed ad nauseam. Your logic is in err, there is solid science to back this up.

With all due respect, Eric
 
I HIGHLY suggest you have a closer look at the thread Eric Stecker of Berger is in, regarding Barnes vs. Berger. The issue of premium controlled expansion bullets vs. match bullets has been hashed, hashed again and rehashed ad nauseam. Your logic is in err, there is solid science to back this up.

With all due respect, Eric

I'm sorry, I can't agree with you.

High impact velocity requires strong (premium) bullets in order to achieve controlled expansion (especially for fast light calibers). Weak bullets have a high probability of blowing up on impact at high velocities.

Low impact velocity on the other hand requires bullets with less strength in order to achieve controlled expansion. Premium / Monolithic / Bonded bullets have a high probability of not opening up and "pencilling through" at low impact velocities.

It's horses for courses.

Shoot a deer at 25 yards with a match bullet at > 3000fps and it will blow up on impact and possibly wound the animal. Shoot the same deer at 500 yards with the same match bullet and you're looking at a dead deer. The converse applies too. Shoot a deer at 25 yards with a premium grade bullet and you're looking at a dead deer. Shoot the same deer at 500 yards, and you're very possibly looking at a wounded deer.

When considering hunting bullets, we need to be highly aware of the likely impact velocity and choose an appropriately constructed projectile accordingly.

Cheers
 
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I'm sorry, I can't agree with you.

High impact velocity requires strong (premium) bullets in order to achieve controlled expansion (especially for fast light calibers). Weak bullets have a high probability of blowing up on impact at high velocities.

Low impact velocity on the other hand requires bullets with less strength in order to achieve controlled expansion. Premium / Monolithic / Bonded bullets have a high probability of not opening up and "pencilling through" at low impact velocities.

It's horses for courses.

Shoot a deer at 25 yards with a match bullet at > 3000fps and it will blow up on impact and possibly wound the animal. Shoot the same deer at 500 yards with the same match bullet and you're looking at a dead deer. The converse applies too. Shoot a deer at 25 yards with a premium grade bullet and you're looking at a dead deer. Shoot the same deer at 500 yards, and you're very possibly looking at a wounded deer.

When considering hunting bullets, we need to be highly aware of the likely impact velocity and choose an appropriately constructed projectile accordingly.

Cheers

Last couple years nearly all the game we shot was shot with match bullets, mostly Bergers and a couple Hornady match anything from 50yrds to 506 yielded the same results, recovered a 168 Berger from a 7mm that took a nice bull elk a 50yrds quartering through the shoulder and up the neck with the bullet ending up just under the hide, mushroomed in good shape.
Shot several deer with 60gr Berger varmint bullets from 75yrds to 150yrds starting out at 3500fps, worked great and jackets were found under hide on far side with everything between blown. We also shot an antelope at 506 with this combo, smokes a 2in hole clean through her. I've hit elk with a 270 WSM with a 140 Berger at close range with above 3000fps impacts and the bullet goes into the ribs and starts opening, shreds the vitals and the jacket ends up under the of side hide. We've worked at getting a Berger to blow, odds are about the same as a bonded bullet, and less than a non-bonded tipped bullet.

I've also shot a few animals close with bonded bullets at high impact speeds and found they are to hard, they can't open fast enough to get opened up good during the short time they are in the animal and they do minimal damage till the of side. I've dug bullets out of the ground that were barely open.
 
Yes, and I can tell you of guys that successfully hunted African Elephant bulls in the wild with old 303's or Cape Buffalo with 308's.

Just cause they did it and it worked, doesn't make it smart.

I learned my hunting in Africa, and we were always told: "More game in Africa has been killed with heavy standard grade bullets at 2000-2300fps than all the rest put together", but we were also told that "For high impact velocity and for when a shot goes slightly wrong (perhaps hits a heavy bone on the way in), a premium grade bullet could save your arse"

Not my words, but still, I have found them to be very wise.

You don't know who is going to read your comments and act on them. Think about that. Just because something worked for you does not make it best practice.

I can tell you now that if you shoot a gnu in Africa (180-240kg) with a standard grade bullet, and the shot is not absolutely perfect, and you'll be running after that thing for days, whereas a premium grade bullet will retain more weight, and therefore have more momentum, and therefore have a higher ability to break bone and create a deeper wound canal and a good exit wound than a standard grade bullet. A good exit wound anywhere in the chest cavity will collapse the lungs in 60 seconds.

It's that simple.

Ask yourself why 72% of hunters in Africa use premium grade bullets.

Out of interest, I have now moved from Africa to New Zealand, and I am appalled, but not surprised, at how many animals are wounded here by hunters (using standard/varmint and match bullets from small fast calibers). In my view this is intolerable and not only causes an animal to suffer, which in itself is intolerable, but also provides huge ammo to the anti-gun lobbyists and bunny huggers.

Many New Zealand hunters that I have spoken to are convinced that a bullet that fragments somehow "liquifies" the lungs / heart etc, and yes, I can see how shrapnel would do that, but when the shot is slightly off, these are the same blokes that have a few beers at camp whilst an animal is dying a slow death in the bush. I have used a variety of premium grade bullets over the last 15 years, and yes, they don't "liquify" the lungs and heart, but they create excellent straight line wound cavities and almost always exit, and I have never lost an animal, even when the bullet has hit major bones (not ribs or shoulder blade as per Berger's promotional video, but real heavy bone) on the way in and on the way out.

I strive to make a perfect shot every time that I line up on an animal, but if something does go wrong, I want as much insurance as possible, and the best blood trail possible so that I can follow up, and a fragmenting bullet will not give you that.

For me, this is an ethical discussion more than anything else.
 
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Preload, your kinda missing some points here, the OP is not hunting African game or even tough game, he's punching whitetails. A bullet can be to hard in this case and just zip though even with high velocity impact, a 105 Berger will go clean through a deer even at a strong quartering shot. A dead broadside shot your only looking at maybe 10in of penetration needed to blow through them. I've seen more than a few whitetails shot with a 105 Berger out of a 243 and in most cases you could nearly reach through the hole, no tracking need just walk up to where they were standing when you pulled the trigger. Does not get any better or quicker than that, unlike the running and tracking show that you will likely get with a bonded bullet. I've had 100% of deer and elk I've hit, other than spine hit, run when hit with an Accubond then very shortly die. The Berger hit animals about 90% are DRT and 10% run, this is on North American deer and elk hit in normal lungs/heart area, one can not ignore this kind of performance!!!
 
Preload, your kinda missing some points here, the OP is not hunting African game or even tough game, he's punching whitetails. A bullet can be to hard in this case and just zip though even with high velocity impact, a 105 Berger will go clean through a deer even at a strong quartering shot. A dead broadside shot your only looking at maybe 10in of penetration needed to blow through them. I've seen more than a few whitetails shot with a 105 Berger out of a 243 and in most cases you could nearly reach through the hole, no tracking need just walk up to where they were standing when you pulled the trigger. Does not get any better or quicker than that, unlike the running and tracking show that you will likely get with a bonded bullet. I've had 100% of deer and elk I've hit, other than spine hit, run when hit with an Accubond then very shortly die. The Berger hit animals about 90% are DRT and 10% run, this is on North American deer and elk hit in normal lungs/heart area, one can not ignore this kind of performance!!!

OK, fair enough. I accept your input in this regard and will buy a box and have a bit of a play with them on test media and develop my views from that. I guess the key for me will be how it performs when a less than ideal hit is made (ie Bone etc), but that can be simulated in the media.

It will be a good exercise for me anyway, and I love learning.

Cheers
 
Shooting deer or elk with a Berger is not like shooting them with a V-max, they do blow to some degree but not till they penetrate into the vitals and they don't vaporize they do a slow blow. I put every bullet I shoot at game through a bullet catching rig to see how they function prior to shooting them on game also, I've found that just because they work in one cal doesn't mean they will in another so each bullet gets ran through at 100yds then at the longest range I intend to shoot it, it's nice to have some idea about what is liable to happen :D
 
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