10 mph head wind not easy

[Mike Matteson]

It's been an interesting read. One thing that concern me is the change in temperature. Some powders change as much as 1fps per 1 d' of change. 30fps is about 8.5" @ 1000yds, and 50fps changes as much as 14" @ a 1000yds. So you are not just dealing with "weather" in wind but temperature change at the same time. If you can get the "SD" down to almost 0 fps, Then that part kind of goes away.
I continue to read here about what powders people are using and how good it is. I kind of feel most people aren't aware how the temperature changes the POI at longer yardages. Especially in weather changing as 130' from high to low, and can be more.
I'll kept reading the learning here on wind. I am well aware of how wind effects POI.

 

[Taylorbok]

@Mike Matteson Ive never heard of anywhere having 130 degree swing? Or do you mean through an entire year? Because yes you definitely need to check temp stability of loads

 

[Mike Matteson]

@Mike Matteson Ive never heard of anywhere having 130 degree swing? Or do you mean through an entire year? Because yes you definitely need to check temp stability of loads

In the area I have hunt in from S Calif, Az to the mountains in Colo and Montana and few other place the temp can change and easy 130' between them.
Colo I have hunted in -20. and Az and Calif it's been over 110'. So do the math. That a 130' change. Even if you split the different and test reloads at the means. That still 65' possible change in temp. That mean that there could be a 65fps different between velocity. Guess what you missed at a 1000yds. So your powder can play a big difference in POI at different ranges.
Now I have hunted in all these state and more for deer. Elk in Colo, and MT. Colo can get below -20, and Az or Calif can get in the 110'+ weather in those seasons you hunt in where.
Now there a few powder that don't change much, but more change a lot.
To me these are factor that have to be figured in to make those 1000yd shot at any game. Big or small.
I'll add a chart from Hodgdon powders on temperature effects. i wish they listed more, It's far better than nothing.
I try to gather information and save it. There isn't much out there, but there powders that don't change much in wide range of temp swings.

 

[Taylorbok]

@Mike Matteson Where I live we see over 130* swing from summer to depth of winter but I thought you meant you were seeing these in one shooting session.
Most people that are serious about long range are aware of how temperature affects MV. Any calculator worth its weight will have a spot to input load temp sensitivity. Easy way to test it is go to the range with a cooler full of ice and laser temp gun. Heat soak a group of ammo using the heater in your truck and then ice down a few rounds for a bout 30 mins. laser the ammo and write down the temp. shoot both ammo across chrony and measure mv. input data into calculator. done no more misses due to temp stability

 

[del2les]

Exactly. And if you look at the video I posted above, you can see the TOF is substantial. If the wind is gusty, a hit at that distance is pure luck.

I also am not a fan of practicing with rounds that have wind drifts a lot different than my LR rifles; knowing your .22RF or .223 drifts "x" mils or MOA at 300 yards doesn't translate to squat when shooting an Edge at 750 or 1000. Reading the wind to 300 or 500 is so much easier than 750 or 1000 that if you have option of either, practice with what you are going to hunt with. The only exception IMO is if you are "scaling" your less capable load to match some other condition. For example, if a .308 Win drifts the same at 500 as your Edge does at 750 (just an example), then it makes sense, but even then, given equal accuracy, you will do better with the 308. You can't extrapolate in a linear fashion either; in other words, if you hit 2.5" from dead center at 500, you can't say "wow, I would have hit a 10" plate at 1000.

I see a lot of comments about placing wind flags. Ok, fine to use them to compare to vegetation moving, but wind flags make it much easier, which is why I avoid practicing on a range.

A couple of points.

We did and do scale drifts to scaled reduced targets and caliber/loads. Some 22LR's scaled well for shorter range drift training when compared to a 308 Palma or other at 800, 900, and 1,000yds. The main factor is TRAINING in hold, trigger break, follow through, wind, etc, for it is geared toward "training the mind" to calc the changing winds regardless of caliber or BC used. That translates to any caliber used with a simple change in ballistics. Its "mastering the process" that is important. (Edit: If you think hitting small targets at 300yds+ with a 22LR is simple, then try mastering 2 MOA plates in varying winds at those ranges)

We use the 223 with VLD's at MR, 500-700, and LR, 800 to 1,000yd+, for the very similar purpose as above, and it is also used in the 600 and 1,000yd F Class category.

These training calibers and choices are designed to support training with larger and more expensive calibers/loads. Being able to shoot 20-30 times more, often much more, with the cheaper and less barrel burning calibers is great practice for when the bigger boys are placed on the line. Having used this for many decades, I can only say it works and it not only greatly improved my scores and hits on distant game/targets, but also it has helped many youth we have trained.

YMMV

 

[Muddyboots]

Stay inside and shoot Pool!

How do you judge "wind" there?

 

[del2les]

Just another of many useful tools on wind reading for shooters.

Revised Print Edition: As a competition shooter you can control many things, but you cannot control the wind conditions. To excel in any outdoor shooting sport you will need to learn how to compensate for the effects of the wind. Written by Master Sergeant Jim Owens, his 20+ years of Marine Corps Shooting Team experience will give you the knowledge of how to read, judge and adjust for the wind - in any type of rifle competition. Jim's book presents a simple system for judging the speed, direction and value of the wind. You'll learn to read the mirage, how to accurately read the range flag, estimate wind speed, wind strategies, effects on the bullet and much more. The coaching techniques section will help your own performance and that of others when shooting in the wind. Also included are 22 sets of wind charts for a variety of calibers (.223, .308, 6.5-08, 6.5-284, .300 Win. Mag.), bullet weights, and for both Across the course and Long Range. There are 80 wind charts in total !

 

[Mike Matteson]

@Mike Matteson Where I live we see over 130* swing from summer to depth of winter but I thought you meant you were seeing these in one shooting session.
Most people that are serious about long range are aware of how temperature affects MV. Any calculator worth its weight will have a spot to input load temp sensitivity. Easy way to test it is go to the range with a cooler full of ice and laser temp gun. Heat soak a group of ammo using the heater in your truck and then ice down a few rounds for a bout 30 mins. laser the ammo and write down the temp. shoot both ammo across chrony and measure mv. input data into calculator. done no more misses due to temp stability

No not in one shooting session. I wouldn't want to be there. I am thinking you are talking about a program instead of calculator. (right or wrong.) Where I became to temp powders was a great many years ago. I had a pat load that was doing 3400fps and almost a bug hole @ 100yds. That load was develop in the winter in Cal. Temp 50' or so. Then went on to other rifles. Came back to it in late June or early July. Temp was up at least 50'. Blew a primer out of the case. These load were hot, but no creators, or ejector marks. 5gr over book hot load. Change powders and haven't had a problem from that time on. the powder I am using the temp doesn't effect it very much. My SD were very low. I hadn't had much problem with that powder. I good to 500yds. I am not using a high end scope nor range finder. I knew where to hold at different yardage with whatever large game aninal I was hunting. I can range them with my scope and adjust to what is needed.to shoot. Looking to shoot varmints like ground squirrels and P. Dogs. Your load and shooting has to be better or you not going hit much.
My brother and I had a rule on ground squirrels nothing under 200yds and we stopped at 400yds. No range finder either. Nothing was being built at that time.

 

[LRNut]

A couple of points.

We did and do scale drifts to scaled reduced targets and caliber/loads. Some 22LR's scaled well for shorter range drift training when compared to a 308 Palma or other at 800, 900, and 1,000yds. The main factor is TRAINING in hold, trigger break, follow through, wind, etc, for it is geared toward "training the mind" to calc the changing winds regardless of caliber or BC used. That translates to any caliber used with a simple change in ballistics. Its "mastering the process" that is important. (Edit: If you think hitting small targets at 300yds+ with a 22LR is simple, then try mastering 2 MOA plates in varying winds at those ranges)

We use the 223 with VLD's at MR, 500-700, and LR, 800 to 1,000yd+, for the very similar purpose as above, and it is also used in the 600 and 1,000yd F Class category.

These training calibers and choices are designed to support training with larger and more expensive calibers/loads. Being able to shoot 20-30 times more, often much more, with the cheaper and less barrel burning calibers is great practice for when the bigger boys are placed on the line. Having used this for many decades, I can only say it works and it not only greatly improved my scores and hits on distant game/targets, but also it has helped many youth we have trained.

YMMV

I am not saying hitting something at 300 yards with .22RF is easy but I don't see how it is relevant to shooting high BC bullets at long ranges. My LR battery consists of 2 28Ns (195 Bergers just under 3k), 2 300 RUMs (shooting either 225 ELDM or 220 ELDX, a Savage Lapua (my only stock rifle) shooting 285 ELDMs at 2700, a .338 Lapua shooting 285 ELDMs at 2900, and a .338 Edge shooting 300 Bergers at 2900. All of these have about the same wind drift. I have a .308 that I gong shoot at 500 in Phoenix, but I brought it to CO and quickly learned it wasn't helping me read the wind any better than the other guns, and more importantly, it didn't help me ascertain my limits with the better LR rifles. As many have pointed out, the longer the range, the more likely it is the wind at your shooting position is not going to be reflective of the wind at your target. I just took a shot at my 620 yard going because the wind was blowing pretty good. By the time I got my video set up, etc., the wind had died. I waited for it to pick up, but it didn't. I held 1/2 MOA left and fired. The dust from my brake blew to the right, but when I watched the video, the dust from the bullet disintegrating on the gong blew left.