1/4-1/2 MOA at 1k LR Rifle- Reality or Wishfull Thinking

[Shawn Carlock]

Well said form everyone. I send out all of my rifles with a proof group, the load and conditions fired in. I do on occasion get people call me up and say they can't get the group I have fired with the rifle. There are several advantages I have over them.

1. I have a 100 yard range in back of the shop complete with wind flags.
2. I shoot from that bench all the time.
3. If the conditions are not perfect I go back into the shop.

I do have to laugh when I ask what kind of wind flags they use and they respond with "What do you mean?". I am with Kirby on the get away from the bench theory. Most any good custom rifle package will shoot considerably better than the best mans ability to read the conditions. We are almost always the weak link. I read the condition as well as most people and I could not take advantage of the true 1/4 moa rifle over the 1/2 moa rifle. I like to hedge my bet all I can. When I shot my elk this year I waited out the the first 6 days of season to hunt the area because I knew the distances would be big and I was not comfortable shooting them in less than perfect conditions. I believe people need to rely on themselves more and their equipment less to make the shot.

 

[prtaylor]

This is an excellent post. I agree that by all means shoot from the field all of the time, learn to read the conditions and most important of all know your own limitations. If you do all of this, you will hit your prey 9 times out of 10. I think that is the most important thing of all

 

[winmagman]

Most any good custom rifle package will shoot considerably better than the best mans ability to read the conditions.

Shawn,

That was my thought when I first read this post. I'm sure there are plenty of 1/4 to 1/2 moa guns out there. The problem with them is they are not shot from a vice in a vacumn, humans shoot them, and that will cut down on their accuracy almost every time.

Chris

 

[Chas1]

Excellent reading and very informing. After reading and hearing about so many 1/4 and 1/2 MOA groups you start to wonder how in the world do these folks consistently do that. Then you start to doubt yourself when your shooting a tight group and then the next group goes to crap. This post has helped put things in better perspective, thanks to Kirby for starting this post. For me it's kinda like any other sport or field or technology or whatever that is on the cutting edge-All variables components, environment, man's ability must be at their optimal consistently to hit that bar consistently. This post has helped me see that those chances are rare. for me I know that most often I'm the weak link. There have been rare occassions when my skills have exceeded that of my rifle, that is when for me it is time to either make improvements to that rifle or get another. I have been at that point for a while, studying and learning from folks such as those posting here so that when I place my order with Kirby it achieves the desired effects. (Note to Kirby: I know it's been several weeks since we last exchanged e-mails but components list will be on it's way shortly-again thank you for all your help. Charlie). Sorry for being longwinded. To sum up thanks to all for this post. As long as the rifle I have can perform better than myself then I'm happy.

 

[LR3]

Great thread!

Given Kirby s comments, I thought I d comment on my 375 AM repeater I bought from Kirby. He had shot 5" at one mile with it so yesturday I got my first chance to push the limits on it at Thunder Valley (see Russo s post on 3.1" at 1680 yds there).

Started at 600 yds and shot 5 about 6" high and grouped 4" , adjusted and shot 3 shots at 2.5" grouping then went to 1000yds and 5 string horizontal band that was about 4" high. Horizontal spread was about 18"with erractic 2-3 mph wind. Then went to 1 mile, and practiced at 12" white target to range. Rifle was shooting better than Exbal numbers (Kirby gave me .7 BC and 3220fps). Dropped MOA by 3 MOA and then was on target. Shot at paper target and 3 rounds 9" low and another about 12" low from bull. Amazing rifle and look forward to growing into it!. Shooting off sandbags rather than bipod based on Kirby s advice. I m sure if I was using BR rest it would be better.

If I could figure out how to post pictures would add them - asked Editor for help but no response yet.

See my other post "375 6 pointer" for more comments about elk hunt with 375 /408CT

,

 

[LR3]

Here Joel Russo s thread

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f36/3-806-group-1-680-yards-29645/

 

[LR3]

And here some comments about 375 s

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/375-6-pointer-636-yds-30-378-technical-48295/

 

[Boss Hoss]

This thread is why I always get a good chuckle about the guys who shoot the tiny groups at 1K. I compete in that sport and know how difficult it is using the best equipment out there. Takes a lot of preperation time as well as trigger time while learning to judge condition. Folks who shoot at this range know that having a wind meter at the the bench is pretty much useless. Never see them at matches for example.

 

[Chas1]

Great thread!

Given Kirby s comments, I thought I d comment on my 375 AM repeater I bought from Kirby. He had shot 5" at one mile with it so yesturday I got my first chance to push the limits on it at Thunder Valley (see Russo s post on 3.1" at 1680 yds there).

Started at 600 yds and shot 5 about 6" high and grouped 4" , adjusted and shot 3 shots at 2.5" grouping then went to 1000yds and 5 string horizontal band that was about 4" high. Horizontal spread was about 18"with erractic 2-3 mph wind. Then went to 1 mile, and practiced at 12" white target to range. Rifle was shooting better than Exbal numbers (Kirby gave me .7 BC and 3220fps). Dropped MOA by 3 MOA and then was on target. Shot at paper target and 3 rounds 9" low and another about 12" low from bull. Amazing rifle and look forward to growing into it!. Shooting off sandbags rather than bipod based on Kirby s advice. I m sure if I was using BR rest it would be better.

If I could figure out how to post pictures would add them - asked Editor for help but no response yet.

See my other post "375 6 pointer" for more comments about elk hunt with 375 /408CT

,

LR3-nice shooting especially since as you said you've got to grow into it. Any pics of your 375?

 

[LR3]

Chas 1,

Still have not figured how to post pictures but here s the link to Kirby s original post that shows the 375. Makes for interesting reading

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f25/375-allen-magnum-repeater-42384/

 

[Chas1]

Chas 1,

Still have not figured how to post pictures but here s the link to Kirby s original post that shows the 375. Makes for interesting reading

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f25/375-allen-magnum-repeater-42384/

Checked out the post...all I can say is...Man that's one BEAST.

 

[milanuk]

We shoot a little longer strings - 15 or 20 rds at a whack - but usually I find the quickest way to pop some one's bubble about their ability to hold a given group size 'all day long' is get them to shoot a string or two, even in practice... but to plot every shot for them. It's interesting to see their reaction when they are confronted in black n white by the target plot where every round is displayed, good or bad.

 

[eddybo]

I shoot a lot of groups and have shot some really tiny 800 yard groups,(especially 3 shot groups, my best is .866) but there is not a gun out there that will consistently shoot 1/4 MOA. It is not that the rifle is not capable, it is the load. Anyone who shoots 100/200 benchrest can tell you how difficult it is to stay on top of your load even at short range. A less than 1/4 MOA load on your first match in the morning may turn into a 1/2 MOA load in the afternoon. Even traveling only 120 miles to shoot can put your load out of tune. I shoot a little f-class and do my load work at 600 yards. I worked up a load in my 6x47 one Friday afternnon that had almost zero verticle, thought I was onto something. Turns out that load shot 3+ inches of verticle the very next morning 120 miles away at a match. And that load was with Varget which is supposed to be very temp stable. Talk about frustrating. A gun that shoots 1/4 MOA all the time just is not happening IMO for that reason alone. That is not even to mention all of the other variables we contend with, including shooter error.

That is not to say that if you load at the bench that you can not make almost any gun shoot a couple of near 1/4 MOA 100 groups on any given day. But you are going to have to tweak your load to get there.

I forgot to add that really tiny groups are a fluke any ways. I have seen groups that defy logic because your eye cannot detect well enough to shoot them.

 

[bwaites]

200 yard target, new load, new COAL.

Moved from the 1000 yard zero on this rifle to 200 yard so that I could do some load development more easily. 1/4 value wind from the back left, at about 5-7 MPH.

1st shot was top right. Down 7/8 MOA and left 1/2 MOA gave me second shot shot. Up 1/4 MOA and left 1/4 MOA gave me the group. That is six shots in that touching group.

Does that make the gun a 1/4 MOA gun?

Does the fact that my 73 year father can hit 1"x2" pieces of clay pigeon at 430 yards make it a 1/4MOA gun?

Not in my book, but I really am happy with the way it shoots!

Be reasonable about what you expect, and enjoy shooting!

Bill

This load was developed for a match in October that Milanuk saw me shoot. At 1000 yards, this load shot 1X-129, hardly a 1/4-1/2 MOA load in that circumstance! The gun didn't change, the conditions did!

I was the top F-Class 1000 yard score that day, with the wind howling, but I think it demonstrates the difference between what is theoretically possible with a rifle, and what actually happens at long range. (It was shot Palma format, 15 shots at 800, 900, 1000 yards) I was unhappy with my scores, especially at 900 where I just flat tanked it, but it was a great learning experience!

I think Shawn and Kirby have it right, a well built rifle today has the POTENTIAL to shoot 1/4 MOA groups at long range, but the actual results will certainly very depending on conditions!

I recently took my dad out shooting. Under good conditions, (little to no wind, bermed range sides for the full length of the range), his 73 year old eyes were putting that 180 grain Berger into 1" by 2" pieces of clay pigeon without problems. Once again, under near ideal conditions, the gun performed as it should.

Bill