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FFP scope?

Even on those western hunts where lets say you're shooting at pronghorn at 800y... are they doing it in 25-50mph of wind? I don't see how the prs scopes are useful at all at any range anywhere for hunting.
Also with the mega zoom, unless they're shooting a 10lb 223, it's about impossible to spot your own shots. If you can't do that in a hunting situation, you have the wrong combo of everything.
It's because you guys only know what's in your fish bowl.

scopes, both moa or MRAD are based on reticles that were designed essentially for military use. Now it's not limited but that's where the bulk of trained people come from.

The reason they have that much in the reticle is 2 fold. Corrections, and movers, and range estimation. In terms of like a common vehicle that you have S2 information on or something.

Now by passing the all the military bs, movers is a legit thing for shooting game. Not just just the wind holdover.
 
It's because you guys only know what's in your fish bowl.

scopes, both moa or MRAD are based on reticles that were designed essentially for military use. Now it's not limited but that's where the bulk of trained people come from.

The reason they have that much in the reticle is 2 fold. Corrections, and movers, and range estimation. In terms of like a common vehicle that you have S2 information on or something.

Now by passing the all the military bs, movers is a legit thing for shooting game. Not just just the wind holdover.
Ok, sure moving targets. At such ranges where that much hold is a thing, are you really shooting at running animals? Or just slinging lead hoping for the best?

But what you say confirms what I'm saying, FFP reticles are made for gamers. Not hunters. They could make one but no one does.
 
Ok, sure moving targets. At such ranges where that much hold is a thing, are you really shooting at running animals? Or just slinging lead hoping for the best?

But what you say confirms what I'm saying, FFP reticles are made for gamers. Not hunters. They could make one but no one does.
Ignorance.

It's not about hitting a running animal, there's something called an ambush method for example, where you let them walk into your shot. Without going into depth here. It will be combined with your wind call. It's not that weird.

What's a "gamer?"
I learned in the military and I "hunt" with what I know. There's plenty of people on this forum and others that hunt with MRAD, and FFP scopes.


Ok. So, your wind changes. You have dope on a high wind and a low wind, or simply wind average. Ok. You're planning to shoot your dope for wind average which we will call 1.6 mils, but the animal stands up, and is about to bail for whatever reason, and now the wind is gusting…

Do don't have time to take a new average, you simply take your wind peak….because it's gusting right….say it's 2.4 mils, put it on the animal and press the trigger. What are they suppose to make that's more dumbed down than that?
 
Ignorance.

It's not about hitting a running animal, there's something called an ambush method for example, where you let them walk into your shot. Without going into depth here. It will be combined with your wind call. It's not that weird.

What's a "gamer?"
I learned in the military and I "hunt" with what I know. There's plenty of people on this forum and others that hunt with MRAD, and FFP scopes.


Ok. So, your wind changes. You have dope on a high wind and a low wind, or simply wind average. Ok. You're planning to shoot your dope for wind average which we will call 1.6 mils, but the animal stands up, and is about to bail for whatever reason, and now the wind is gusting…you simply take your wind peak….say it's 2.4 mils, put it on the animal and press the trigger. What are they suppose to make that's more dumbed down than that?
A gamer is someone that shoots in competition with made up arbitrary conditions. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just miles from hunting realities. Because it's so popular, or at least the scope manufacturers cater almost entirely to it, those conditions drive what is designed for. Which is extreme precision. Which is great. The problem is it's at the cost of far more useful things. Like being able to see the reticle. Or low light.

The issue is the reticles are all useless on low magnification because they're designing for things that do not exist in hunting. If they did, they could have the reticle big enough close enough to the center to use it at the lowest magnification.

In order to actually need the reticles offered, the conditions have to be quite terrible. So terrible that the vast majority of hunters couldn't possibly pull off the shot. And we can see that in reality vs the ultra super snipers people are on forums vs the you tube challenges where people absolutely cannot make a lot easier shot than that reticle would allow for with full on custom ultra heavy guns and all the time in the world.

That all said, I think you're not understanding my complaints. I like FFP. I like MRAD. No one makes one worth a crap for hunting.

In my example, I chose a pretty terrible combo for anything long range, but it's a very common load for a lot of hunters. If I chose something more appropriate for long range like a 6.5prc and a 147eldm, in a 30mph wind 5mils is at 1100yards.
If the animal is moving at a brisk walk(5mph), that's a fine moving shot, 5 mils is past 2000y.
Let's put them together, a very reasonable 10mph wind and a 5mph moving target. You're still not to 5mils until 1000y. I just can't see very many hunters capable of that shot. There are some, but it would not be enough people to sell enough scopes to recover 10mins of the r&d on it, let alone make any money.
 
A gamer is someone that shoots in competition with made up arbitrary conditions. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just miles from hunting realities. Because it's so popular, or at least the scope manufacturers cater almost entirely to it, those conditions drive what is designed for. Which is extreme precision. Which is great. The problem is it's at the cost of far more useful things. Like being able to see the reticle. Or low light.

The issue is the reticles are all useless on low magnification because they're designing for things that do not exist in hunting. If they did, they could have the reticle big enough close enough to the center to use it at the lowest magnification.

In order to actually need the reticles offered, the conditions have to be quite terrible. So terrible that the vast majority of hunters couldn't possibly pull off the shot. And we can see that in reality vs the ultra super snipers people are on forums vs the you tube challenges where people absolutely cannot make a lot easier shot than that reticle would allow for with full on custom ultra heavy guns and all the time in the world.

That all said, I think you're not understanding my complaints. I like FFP. I like MRAD. No one makes one worth a crap for hunting.

In my example, I chose a pretty terrible combo for anything long range, but it's a very common load for a lot of hunters. If I chose something more appropriate for long range like a 6.5prc and a 147eldm, in a 30mph wind 5mils is at 1100yards.
If the animal is moving at a brisk walk(5mph), that's a fine moving shot, 5 mils is past 2000y.
Let's put them together, a very reasonable 10mph wind and a 5mph moving target. You're still not to 5mils until 1000y. I just can't see very many hunters capable of that shot.
I think this is more a user error kind of thing combined with a "too busy for me" preference. Conflating what you want with what you need.

The gamer scopes are literally just military scopes that are used to "hunt" people. They call us HOGs on the Marine side. I'll let you google that.

if you are that close that your in 3 to 4 power, just click on the illumination and use the cross hair. It's a max PBR shot. No reticle really needed.

Sure, hunters suck, at making multiple shots on a target at range. But if I bring up the PRS then it's a "gamer thing." Despite how much it translates to real world shooting. How often are you shooting 5 times at a stationary deer at 2 difference distance?

The backfire YouTube video was dumb. Then when an actual shooter like Eric Cortina said he would do it, it never happened. Backfire has made a few dumb videos.
 
I, for one, do not know anyone, to include most of the hunters in my shooting club that shoot scopes calibrated in MRAD. MOA is much easier to use without having to have a calculator handy for figuring elevation changes or windage.
Tell me more about the calculator I need for my MIL scope that isn't required for a MOA scope.
 
Mine are usually set at 7-8ish. Depends on the lighting conditions. I can see the reticle at lower powers but it's easier to pick up around 7 power if have to make a quick shot. Essentially if I'm carrying my weapon in hand (which I rarely am), I'll throw it up real quick from time to time to make sure I can pick up the reticle quickly. If I can't, I'll adjust it up or down to the condition. Dark timber is harder to pick up black reticles so higher magnification is required. Which can be tough at closer ranges but i rifle hunt long range so something has to give. You can't prefer 1st fp scopes for LR if you want something better for close range dark timber.
 
The march F1 blows my nx8 reticle away as far as usability.Mosly on thickness.I hunt hard and want all the advantages, although I have shot have my game archery.I shot a muley at 700+ in extreme wind, I wouldn't normally shoot but I had a good rest and I was slinging 300 otm,I was way off the animal when shot broke and I stoned it ,threw shoulder.Which wasn't the greatest.Ive taken same shot with my 257 wby on speed goats and missed multiple in high wind.I started using my 338 in those conditions, yes it has way less wind drift.My kid would talk about guys in marines having a hard time at night connecting,theyed call him to line and he'd start ringing them at 500M one after another.I had him shooting when he was 5.He qualified expert 6 year pistol and rifle.One match her only dropped 1 point.
 
I think this is more a user error kind of thing combined with a "too busy for me" preference. Conflating what you want with what you need.

The gamer scopes are literally just military scopes that are used to "hunt" people. They call us HOGs on the Marine side. I'll let you google that.

if you are that close that your in 3 to 4 power, just click on the illumination and use the cross hair. It's a max PBR shot. No reticle really needed.

Sure, hunters suck, at making multiple shots on a target at range. But if I bring up the PRS then it's a "gamer thing." Despite how much it translates to real world shooting. How often are you shooting 5 times at a stationary deer at 2 difference distance?

The backfire YouTube video was dumb. Then when an actual shooter like Eric Cortina said he would do it, it never happened. Backfire has made a few dumb videos.
Maybe we have a different use for magnification. 6x takes me out to 5-600 yards. If I'm not watching that bullet go out and hit the animal, I have way too much magnification.

I'm more talking about Cortina's videos where he has people with PRS guns that can't hit a 1MOA target at 500y with a cold bore shot. Very few people can. Add enough wind or movement to actually need more than 3 mils and the amount of people making that cold bore shot are extremely few and far between. Again, not enough to make any money on a scope if people bought it based on need and ability.
I do wish he'd make the target a bit bigger... 2-3MOA is more reasonable.
 
I've avoided this thread like the plague because we're talking about personal preferences across a hunting spectrum that could very well be international but I'm gonna put my phallus in this hornet's nest and run away.

the majority of scopes on the market today don't do things because they're useful, they do them because they sell. And most people that purchase them don't do so because they need the features but because other people or salesmen have put it out there that this is what's needed.

if the market was driven by the small subset of people who practice and hunt frequently, there would be too many variables to make everyone happy or have much of an economy of scale because of so many different requirements whether it's the aging eyes folks, the point blank brush jumpers, the mile long 40 knot wind crew, whatever. Just look at this thread, nobody's going to be able to make all you people completely happy.

but I bet that guy behind the sales counter can sell scopes to folks with a line about "you've got enough reticule to shoot in a 50mph tempest out to 1200 yards" and he'll sell more of them to people who will only use them on a sub 300yd rifle range than he'll have people laugh in his face and walk out of the place.

tl:dr the market is driven by what sells not what's effective
 
yall got me all worked up and I forgot, I'm in the OP's situation as well. trying to play with different things and get out of my grove a bit.

been going back and forth on an FFP or sfp atacr 4-16 for a few months and it comes down to I've got to hold one to know.

and I want those march dual focal planes to get ironed out and affordable to the point we can go back to squabbling about why we hate each other's caliber choices
 
Maybe we have a different use for magnification. 6x takes me out to 5-600 yards. If I'm not watching that bullet go out and hit the animal, I have way too much magnification.

I'm more talking about Cortina's videos where he has people with PRS guns that can't hit a 1MOA target at 500y with a cold bore shot. Very few people can. Add enough wind or movement to actually need more than 3 mils and the amount of people making that cold bore shot are extremely few and far between. Again, not enough to make any money on a scope if people bought it based on need and ability.
I do wish he'd make the target a bit bigger... 2-3MOA is more reasonable.
I think we are on the same page with magnification. Again. I have a technical background.

I only use about 10-12x at 1000 and just enough magnification for seeing the target at close. I leave that ambiguous because some scopes down to 3 power and some as low as 7 power. I agree that for 600 4-7 power is great.

I mean I think that there aren't as many 1 moa shooters as people claim.

I also think on average that people suck at wind, and don't have their data down as much as they think. Again though, I think that's a technical and training issue and not a FFP/reticle issue.

People that do proper training do well.
 
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At 800+ yards?

I'd love to see someone hit a 2MOA target at 800yd in a 30mph wind with a cold bore shot. That's some world class shooting.
I've never seen a wind that strong be anywhere near consistent, it's more like 25 gusting 35 or 40, and areas of 0 due to terrain and trees over 800y.
Sorry it was only 440 yds and snowing the last time.
 
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