Dangerous Reloading Practice

Critter Picker said:
Maybe a bunch of us should get together and get a educational grant to study the effects of tumbling on different powders. See if ball or flake are more or less prone to degradation than stick powders. I can think of all kinds of experiments to try.
Click to expand...
Why don't we just err to the safe side and not take a chance on tumbling reloaded ammo. Probably unlike many others, I wipe the lube off of each round using a microfiber cloth. Only takes a few minutes and I don't have to worry if tumbling is going to change my load. Really gentlemen. You go through all the steps to make the most accurate ammo that you can, then you take a chance on damaging it?? :oops:
 
Critter Picker said:
I don't want to tumble MY ammo. Just want the grant.
Click to expand...
In order to get a grant you have to apply for it. If you want it that bad the start checking to see what it takes.. Nobody said it would be easy, but looking at what some others have gotten grants for there is probably a pretty good chance that if, one was to properly prepare the paperwork, and spin some environmental twist on it. You could make it happen. Again, Nobody said it would be easy.
 
The following is an attempt to respond to some of the responses posted about this experiment. Again, it is not meant as an attack, to belittle, or insult to anyone. I only intend to explain why I disagree with their position, procedure, or practice. The whole point of this experiment was in response to ammo being left in a tumbler for extended period of time and thinking it will be safe to fire. Not to indicate that tumbling for an hour would be dangerous.

The following responses are my beliefs and practices, it's your choice to agree or disagree. Hope you are not offended; I will not be offended if you disagree.

**Regarding manufactures tumbling their loaded ammo to clean, I just called Hornady. Their procedure DOES NOT INCLUDE TUMBLING LOADED AMMO! Brass and bullets are tumbled to clean, never loaded ammo. The gentleman I spoke with just laughed and said "Never!"

**It was suggested I try ball powder next time that would be an interesting experiment. I not sure if there is a can in my cabinet. I will check to see if I have any.

**Shooting unknown loads, could not agree more. That is a foolish and dangerous thing to do. There are only a few people on this planet I trust enough to shoot their hand loads. Buying loaded ammo, even factory stuff at a gun show is risky in my opinion.

**One statement on another blog I posted this on was 25 grains of powder will be 25 grains whether tumbled or not. Sorry but you really need to rethink your thought process. Powder manufactures go thru tremendous efforts to develop coatings and processes to control burn rates. If you disturb that coating and the construction of the grains, you will change its burn rate. Try crushing some, set it off, you will see a difference!

**A few posts defended tumbling loaded ammo for no more than half to 1 hour. I'm pretty sure you will not end with a dangerous round. But I do believe it will change the consistency of the burn rate of the powder, why would you be willing to do that? After hunting season, I will be doing some additional testing to see if run out, seating depth, and bullet nose damage occurs to any degree.

**Some have stated their procedure is to tumble to get the lube off, both before and after loading. As a bench rest shooter, we learned long ago a little lube left on the case is an advantage. The theory is the lube allows the round to push back against the bolt face more consistently. I've tested this shooting in an underground 100 yard tunnel, it works. Since I don't tumble or run BR cases with thin necks in a vibratory cleaner, I actually wipe my cases with a light coat of Kroil before heading to the line. So with cases that are cleaned, lubed, and sized, they are wiped off with a clean rag to leave a thin coat of lube. Never run through a tumbler or vibratory cleaner.

**One response was military ammo bouncing around in a truck. The whole point is to show that it can have an effect. I don't know what effect it has on ball powder, since I don't shoot ball powder it's not on my radar.

**A few posts addressed cleaning lube of cases after loading in a progressive press. I have never loaded a single rifle round on a progressive press and never will. If I was to use a progressive press, the cases would be sized on a single stage, wipe the cases off then head to the progressive press. If you are loading pistol cases, you should be using carbide dies that don't require lube.

**I read the article from NRA American Hunter that was linked. The end of the article stated the following:

"Both scientists felt that tumbling was a safe practice within the bounds of reason. The Ruling;
We are calling BullShooters on this one. While extended tumbling could, at some point theoretically cause a problem, a reasonable amount of tumbling to clean up loaded ammo is not dangerous."

The key in this whole article is the operative words "REASONABLE AMOUNT"

**One response was indicating that because of light conditions the results did not show up. I clearly stated the photos from my phone camera did not show the results I seen. If I take this any further, I will break out the good camera. I am not a good photographer, never claimed to be. I actually had my high school photo teacher pull me to the side and say "Tidwell, if your quality ever matches your enthusiasm, you will go far. As it is, find another profession!"

**I was asked what did I prove. Don't think I proved anything, but wasn't trying to prove anything. I don't have the scientific background to prove anything. All my experiment did was show that the powder can be affected by tumbling.
 
Randy Tidwell said:
The following is an attempt to respond to some of the responses posted about this experiment. Again, it is not meant as an attack, to belittle, or insult to anyone. I only intend to explain why I disagree with their position, procedure, or practice. The whole point of this experiment was in response to ammo being left in a tumbler for extended period of time and thinking it will be safe to fire. Not to indicate that tumbling for an hour would be dangerous.

The following responses are my beliefs and practices, it's your choice to agree or disagree. Hope you are not offended; I will not be offended if you disagree.

**Regarding manufactures tumbling their loaded ammo to clean, I just called Hornady. Their procedure DOES NOT INCLUDE TUMBLING LOADED AMMO! Brass and bullets are tumbled to clean, never loaded ammo. The gentleman I spoke with just laughed and said "Never!"

**It was suggested I try ball powder next time that would be an interesting experiment. I not sure if there is a can in my cabinet. I will check to see if I have any.

**Shooting unknown loads, could not agree more. That is a foolish and dangerous thing to do. There are only a few people on this planet I trust enough to shoot their hand loads. Buying loaded ammo, even factory stuff at a gun show is risky in my opinion.

**One statement on another blog I posted this on was 25 grains of powder will be 25 grains whether tumbled or not. Sorry but you really need to rethink your thought process. Powder manufactures go thru tremendous efforts to develop coatings and processes to control burn rates. If you disturb that coating and the construction of the grains, you will change its burn rate. Try crushing some, set it off, you will see a difference!

**A few posts defended tumbling loaded ammo for no more than half to 1 hour. I'm pretty sure you will not end with a dangerous round. But I do believe it will change the consistency of the burn rate of the powder, why would you be willing to do that? After hunting season, I will be doing some additional testing to see if run out, seating depth, and bullet nose damage occurs to any degree.

**Some have stated their procedure is to tumble to get the lube off, both before and after loading. As a bench rest shooter, we learned long ago a little lube left on the case is an advantage. The theory is the lube allows the round to push back against the bolt face more consistently. I've tested this shooting in an underground 100 yard tunnel, it works. Since I don't tumble or run BR cases with thin necks in a vibratory cleaner, I actually wipe my cases with a light coat of Kroil before heading to the line. So with cases that are cleaned, lubed, and sized, they are wiped off with a clean rag to leave a thin coat of lube. Never run through a tumbler or vibratory cleaner.

**One response was military ammo bouncing around in a truck. The whole point is to show that it can have an effect. I don't know what effect it has on ball powder, since I don't shoot ball powder it's not on my radar.

**A few posts addressed cleaning lube of cases after loading in a progressive press. I have never loaded a single rifle round on a progressive press and never will. If I was to use a progressive press, the cases would be sized on a single stage, wipe the cases off then head to the progressive press. If you are loading pistol cases, you should be using carbide dies that don't require lube.

**I read the article from NRA American Hunter that was linked. The end of the article stated the following:

"Both scientists felt that tumbling was a safe practice within the bounds of reason. The Ruling;
We are calling BullShooters on this one. While extended tumbling could, at some point theoretically cause a problem, a reasonable amount of tumbling to clean up loaded ammo is not dangerous."

The key in this whole article is the operative words "REASONABLE AMOUNT"

**One response was indicating that because of light conditions the results did not show up. I clearly stated the photos from my phone camera did not show the results I seen. If I take this any further, I will break out the good camera. I am not a good photographer, never claimed to be. I actually had my high school photo teacher pull me to the side and say "Tidwell, if your quality ever matches your enthusiasm, you will go far. As it is, find another profession!"

**I was asked what did I prove. Don't think I proved anything, but wasn't trying to prove anything. I don't have the scientific background to prove anything. All my experiment did was show that the powder can be affected by tumbling.
Click to expand...
In regards to the comment about Military Ammo bouncing around in the back of a truck. Whether you want to believe it or not, factory ammo gets bounced around just as much, maybe even more-so during the handling, loading into a truck, unloading from a truck, bouncing around on a forklift, dropped to the ground the last few inches by the fork lift operator, dropped while being placed on the shelf at your local ammo supply place and the list goes on. While ammo, and the powder contained are not fragile and handling under normal use is not going to damage it. Tumbling is not normal use.
 
Randy Tidwell said:
**One statement on another blog I posted this on was 25 grains of powder will be 25 grains whether tumbled or not. Sorry but you really need to rethink your thought process. Powder manufactures go thru tremendous efforts to develop coatings and processes to control burn rates. If you disturb that coating and the construction of the grains, you will change its burn rate. Try crushing some, set it off, you will see a difference!
Click to expand...
1000% accurate.

A significant factor in powder burn rate is the SURFACE AREA that is reacting versus the total mass of propellant. Powder burns, it does not detonate or deflagrate. There's a significant technical differences between these types of combustion processes and burning. If you were to double the surface area of a powder (or more, say by grinding down kernels) and keep the mass the same, then at a fixed volume of reactive space (also critically important - the volume of the reaction vessel aka the chamber/case), the burn rate will change based on pressure changing differently over time, accelerating the burn.

That doesn't even get into coatings, which any mechanical reduction process would completely alter.

SC and SSC kernels work because powder burn rate can vary +/- 10% between lots anyways, the additional surface area of two more ends of a cylinder by cutting a kernel in half doesn't increase the total surface area more than any other variable changes between lots.
 
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Randy Tidwell said:
The following is an attempt to respond to some of the responses posted about this experiment. Again, it is not meant as an attack, to belittle, or insult to anyone. I only intend to explain why I disagree with their position, procedure, or practice. The whole point of this experiment was in response to ammo being left in a tumbler for extended period of time and thinking it will be safe to fire. Not to indicate that tumbling for an hour would be dangerous.

The following responses are my beliefs and practices, it's your choice to agree or disagree. Hope you are not offended; I will not be offended if you disagree.

**Regarding manufactures tumbling their loaded ammo to clean, I just called Hornady. Their procedure DOES NOT INCLUDE TUMBLING LOADED AMMO! Brass and bullets are tumbled to clean, never loaded ammo. The gentleman I spoke with just laughed and said "Never!"

**It was suggested I try ball powder next time that would be an interesting experiment. I not sure if there is a can in my cabinet. I will check to see if I have any.

**Shooting unknown loads, could not agree more. That is a foolish and dangerous thing to do. There are only a few people on this planet I trust enough to shoot their hand loads. Buying loaded ammo, even factory stuff at a gun show is risky in my opinion.

**One statement on another blog I posted this on was 25 grains of powder will be 25 grains whether tumbled or not. Sorry but you really need to rethink your thought process. Powder manufactures go thru tremendous efforts to develop coatings and processes to control burn rates. If you disturb that coating and the construction of the grains, you will change its burn rate. Try crushing some, set it off, you will see a difference!

**A few posts defended tumbling loaded ammo for no more than half to 1 hour. I'm pretty sure you will not end with a dangerous round. But I do believe it will change the consistency of the burn rate of the powder, why would you be willing to do that? After hunting season, I will be doing some additional testing to see if run out, seating depth, and bullet nose damage occurs to any degree.

**Some have stated their procedure is to tumble to get the lube off, both before and after loading. As a bench rest shooter, we learned long ago a little lube left on the case is an advantage. The theory is the lube allows the round to push back against the bolt face more consistently. I've tested this shooting in an underground 100 yard tunnel, it works. Since I don't tumble or run BR cases with thin necks in a vibratory cleaner, I actually wipe my cases with a light coat of Kroil before heading to the line. So with cases that are cleaned, lubed, and sized, they are wiped off with a clean rag to leave a thin coat of lube. Never run through a tumbler or vibratory cleaner.

**One response was military ammo bouncing around in a truck. The whole point is to show that it can have an effect. I don't know what effect it has on ball powder, since I don't shoot ball powder it's not on my radar.

**A few posts addressed cleaning lube of cases after loading in a progressive press. I have never loaded a single rifle round on a progressive press and never will. If I was to use a progressive press, the cases would be sized on a single stage, wipe the cases off then head to the progressive press. If you are loading pistol cases, you should be using carbide dies that don't require lube.

**I read the article from NRA American Hunter that was linked. The end of the article stated the following:

"Both scientists felt that tumbling was a safe practice within the bounds of reason. The Ruling;
We are calling BullShooters on this one. While extended tumbling could, at some point theoretically cause a problem, a reasonable amount of tumbling to clean up loaded ammo is not dangerous."

The key in this whole article is the operative words "REASONABLE AMOUNT"

**One response was indicating that because of light conditions the results did not show up. I clearly stated the photos from my phone camera did not show the results I seen. If I take this any further, I will break out the good camera. I am not a good photographer, never claimed to be. I actually had my high school photo teacher pull me to the side and say "Tidwell, if your quality ever matches your enthusiasm, you will go far. As it is, find another profession!"

**I was asked what did I prove. Don't think I proved anything, but wasn't trying to prove anything. I don't have the scientific background to prove anything. All my experiment did was show that the powder can be affected by tumbling.
Click to expand...
Then have an opinion on blue is a better color than red. Give all your personal beliefs and opinions on the matter, but don't apply that to something that can have scientific method applied which the results are based upon facts and experimentation.
 
I just was listening to Redacted and they were saying that our "GENIUS" government has been paying for hundreds of thousands of dollars too study how effective seatbelts are in the African state Ghana.
At least that's the news story. More like they spent that money to fund another CIA drug deal or coup of a government that wasn't playing ball with the Central Banks
 
Randy Tidwell said:
**Regarding manufactures tumbling their loaded ammo to clean, I just called Hornady. Their procedure DOES NOT INCLUDE TUMBLING LOADED AMMO! Brass and bullets are tumbled to clean, never loaded ammo. The gentleman I spoke with just laughed and said never.
Click to expand...

I have worked at two major manufacturers, and I can say that they both ABSOLUTELY tumbled their ammo. Ammo does not come out of linear presses all shiny and pretty, they are coved in lube and gunk from the presses.
 
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Rotten said:
I just was listening to Redacted and they were saying that our "GENIUS" government has been paying for hundreds of thousands of dollars too study how effective seatbelts are in the African state Ghana.
At least that's the news story. More like they spent that money to fund another CIA drug deal or coup of a government that wasn't playing ball with the Central Banks
Click to expand...
I personally don't think that this is an appropriate subject to be discussed on this forum. :(
 
Brathany said:
Then have an opinion on blue is a better color than red. Give all your personal beliefs and opinions on the matter, but don't apply that to something that can have scientific method applied which the results are based upon facts and experimentation.
Click to expand...
I prefer Green.......
 

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Teri Anne said:
I personally don't think that this is an appropriate subject to be discussed on this forum. :(
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I'm sorry. If you read the previous posts they we're discussing getting a grant for studying the decaying effect of tumbling loaded ammo.
I was just pointing out the fact the government will give a grant to almost anyone. Including over eating just a 🤔
 
Rotten said:
I'm sorry. If you read the previous posts they we're discussing getting a grant for studying the decaying effect of tumbling loaded ammo.
I was just pointing out the fact the government will give a grant to almost anyone. Including over eating just a 🤔
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OK, Sorry I blew up. The way the post was worded did not seem to relate to a previous post. ;)
 

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