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Seating depth tuning- need suggestion

I can appreciate chasing perfection, I do it on other cartridges. I'm going to load a few to verify dope, and probably call it good for now. If this was the only project I had in the mix, I might go one more step, but with where it is now, I feel very confident well past 500 yds (another self-imposed limit that will likely be broken this year).

Thanks for the feedback fellas!
 
The .47" could be seated a little more to bring that third bullet into the group. I'd suggest .004-.005" and shoot a couple or three groups to see if there is a tightening.

This is why some handloaders seat to max OAL so there is only one direction to go and simplify the process, also remembering that seating deeper lowers pressure.
Actually, seating deeper can also increase pressure. The extra jump to the lands is offest by decreasing the capacity in the case, that lessens the expansion room for the gas produced by ignition.
 
Actually, seating deeper can also increase pressure. The extra jump to the lands is offest by decreasing the capacity in the case, that lessens the expansion room for the gas produced by ignition.
Seating deeper expands the lede between the chamber and rifling. That extra throat is why pressures usually drop and the reason some handloaders determine pressure with lands contact before reducing OAL.

What you're describing is not apparent with most case designs.

What was the case and load details where you determined this?
 
Seating deeper expands the lede between the chamber and rifling. That extra throat is why pressures usually drop and the reason some handloaders determine pressure with lands contact before reducing OAL.

What you're describing is not apparent with most case designs.

What was the case and load details where you determined this?
This should help. It is common in all cases, just not widely known or understood.

 
That won't open on my phone.
Have 8 pdf readers downloaded. None work
Opens on mine right in a browser but here is a copy and paste. It is missing the illustrations i think.

I also attached a pdf copy of the file


EffEcts of cartridgE ovEr all lEngth (coal)
and cartridgE BasE to ogivE (cBto)
By: Bryan litz
Many shooters are not aware of the dramatic effects that bullet
seating depth can have on the pressure and velocity generated by a
rifle cartridge. COAL is also a variable that can be used to fine tune
accuracy. It's also an important consideration for rifles that need to feed
rounds through a magazine. In this chapter, we'll explore the various
effects of COAL, and what choices a shooter can make to maximize the
effectiveness of their handloads.
Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute
(SAAMI)
Most reloading manuals, including this one, present loading data
according to SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers'
Institute) standards. SAAMI provides max pressure, COAL and many
other specifications for commercial cartridges so that rifle makers,
ammo makers and handloaders can standardize their products to all work
together. As we'll see later in this chapter, these SAAMI standards are
in many cases outdated and can dramatically restrict the performance
potential of a cartridge.
Bullet seating depth is an important variable in the accuracy equation.
In many cases, the SAAMI specified COAL is shorter than what a
handloader wants to load their rounds to for accuracy purposes. In
the case where a handloader seats the bullets longer than SAAMI
specified COAL, there are some internal ballistic effects that take place
which are important to understand.
Effects of Seating Depth / COAL on Pressure and Velocity
The primary effect of loading a cartridge long is that it leaves more
internal volume inside the cartridge. This extra internal volume has a
well-known effect; for a given powder charge, there will be less pressure
and less velocity produced because of the extra empty space. Another
way to look at this is you have to use more powder to achieve the same
pressure and velocity when the bullet is seated out long. In fact, the
extra powder you can add to a cartridge with the bullet seated long
will allow you to achieve greater velocity at the same pressure than a
149
cartridge with a bullet seated short.
When you think about it, this makes good sense. After all, when you
seat the bullet out longer and leave more internal case volume for
powder, you're effectively making the cartridge into a bigger cartridge
by increasing the size of the combustion chamber. Figure 1 illustrates
the extra volume that's available for powder when the bullet is seated
out long.
Before concluding that it's a good idea to start seating your bullets
longer than SAAMI spec length, there are a few things to consider.
Geometry of a Chamber Throat
The chamber in a rifle will have a certain throat length which will dictate
how long a bullet can be loaded. The throat is the forward portion of the
chamber that has no rifling. The portion of the bullet's bearing surface
that projects out of the case occupies the throat (see Figure 2).
The length of the throat determines how much of the bullet can stick out
of the case. When a cartridge is chambered and the bullet encounters
the beginning of the rifling, known as the lands, it's met with hard
resistance. This COAL marks the maximum length that a bullet can
be seated. When a bullet is seated out to contact the lands, its initial
forward motion during ignition is immediately resisted by an engraving
force.
Figure 1: When the bullet is seated farther out of the case, there
is more volume available for powder. This enables the cartridge
to generate higher muzzle velocity with the same pressure.
150
Seating a bullet against the rifling causes pressures to be elevated
noticeably higher than if the bullet were seated just a few thousandths
of an inch off the rifling.
A very common practice in precision reloading is to establish the COAL
for a bullet that's seated to touch the rifling. This is a reference length
that the handloader works from when searching for the optimal seating
depth for precision. Many times the best seating depth is with the bullet
touching or very near the rifling. However in some rifles, the best
seating depth might be 0.100" or more off the rifling. This is simply a
variable the handloader uses to tune the precision of a rifle.
Considerations for Magazine Feeding
When a handloader is working to
establish a seating depth to use with a
particular bullet, he must decide if he
needs the cartridges to feed through
a magazine or not. If the shooting
application is hunting or tactical
shooting, then the shooter probably
needs the rounds to cycle through the
magazine so the rifle can be used as a
repeater. However, in many slow fire
target shooting applications, it's not
Figure 2: Chamber throat geometry showing the bullet jump
to the rifling.
Figure 3: Illustration of a bullet being
seated out of the case too far to feed
through a magazine.
151
necessary to magazine feed the cartridges.
Often times when a shooter doesn't need to feed rounds through a
magazine, the shooter can take advantage of substantial performance
improvements by loading the bullets out long. This brings up an
important reality of seating depth and COAL.
SAAMI COAL Limits Ballistic Performance
It is a fact that the ballistic performance of modern ammunition is
directly limited by the SAAMI COAL standards that are currently
in place and that rifle manufacturers build to. Even when a shooter
understands the implications of cartridge case volume and has a chamber
that allows them to load the rounds out long, the rifle itself (having been
built to feed SAAMI length cartridges) won't allow the shooter to do so.
This fact is one reason for the popularity of custom rifle builders who
understand the importance of feeding longer than SAAMI length rounds
and building rifles with long enough actions and magazines to cycle the
rounds. The first commercial rifle manufacturers who figure this out
and start building rifles capable of feeding longer rounds will lead the
way into modern times. There have been many improvements to several
key components of modern rifle ammunition, specifically bullets and
powder. It's unfortunate that many rifle makers continue to adhere to the
antiquated SAAMI limitations that were put in place so long ago when
components were so different, standards which limit the performance of
modern potential.
Summary of COAL discussion
To recap the important considerations regarding bullet seating depth as it
relates to COAL, we can say:
• Seating a long bullet to the restrictive SAAMI COAL can
severely decrease the internal volume of the cartridge, which will
limit the max velocity the cartridge can achieve.
• If magazine feeding is not a requirement (or if you have a
longer than standard magazine) you can load your bullets long,
which increases the volume for powder and allows you to use
more powder and achieve faster MV for the same pressure.
• If you load the bullet too long and it encounters the lands, this
can elevate pressure due to the engraving force resisting the
bullet's initial forward motion.
152
Cartridge Base To Ogive (CBTO)
The previous section focused on the importance of COAL in terms of
SAAMI standards, magazine lengths, etc. There is another measure of
length for loaded ammunition which is highly important to precision.
Refer back to Figure 2. Suppose the bullet was seated out of the case
to the point where the base of the bullet's nose (ogive) just contacted
the beginning of the riflings (the lands) when the bolt was closed. This
bullet seating configuration is referred to as touching the lands, or
touching the riflings and is a very important measurement to understand
for precision handloading. Due to the complex dynamics of internal
ballistics which happen in the blink of an eye, the distance a bullet
moves out of the case before it engages the riflings is highly critical
to precision potential. Therefore, in order to systematically optimize
the precision of his handloads, it's critically important that the precision
handloader understands how to alter bullet seating depth in relation to
the riflings.
Part of the required knowledge is understanding how to accurately and
repeatably measure the Cartridge Base To Ogive (CBTO) dimension,
and furthermore how to communicate this dimension to other shooters.
The following material will shed some light on the subtleties and pitfalls
of the various methods available for measuring CBTO.
Why not use CBTO as a SAAMI standard?
If CBTO is so important to the precision capability of rifles, you might
ask, "why is it not listed as the SAAMI spec standard in addition
to COAL?" There is one primary reason why it is not listed in the
standard. This is the lack of uniformity in bullet nose shapes and
measuring devices used to determine CBTO.
Let's start by acknowledging the diversity of bullet nose shapes. All
noses are essentially a curve that is part of a larger circle. You would
think this would make nose shapes fairly consistent. The problem is that
the circular arc geometries are different for each bullet design. Even
for a given bullet design, tool making is not a precise enough process to
make these shapes precisely the same from tool to tool. Add to this the
challenge of putting this curve on a surface that is round (like a bullet).
Doing this means that the size and location of the curve is influenced by
the diameter of the bullet.
153
When your bullet seater touches the tip of one bullet, the distance to the
point on the nose that engages the rifling is fixed. If your bullets have
precisely the same nose curve and the same diameter, then your CBTO
will be very uniform and should easily be able to maintain a +/- .001
tolerance. This is achieved when using good bullets, properly chamfered
case mouths, and a seater die that does not allow the bullet to bottom out
(within the seater die cone) on the tip of the bullet.
Measuring, Recording and Communicating CBTO
There is a vast lack of uniformity in comparators and measuring devices
used to determine CBTO. This is a critical point to understand. To
measure from the base of the cartridge to where the bearing surface ends
on the bullet, you must use a gauge that will attach to your calipers and
which also goes over the nose of the bullet to touch the point where the
bearing surface transitions into the nose curve. We already sorted out
that bullets can and will vary in this area (at least from type to type if not
lot to lot). This makes it impossible for gauge manufacturers to use one
given diameter and shape in their gauges. So there is no standard shape
and diameter for gauges. Said differently, gauges can and will vary in
Figure 4: Two different bullet shapes, seated to the same CBTO
length, but different COAL. Note the shiny scratches on the
bullets made by the comparator tool, which indicates a point on
the bullet ogive near where the ogive will engage the riflings.
154
both inside diameter and the shape where the gauge contacts the bullet.
There is another reason why these gauges are not standardized. Since
bullet nose shapes and diameters will vary, gauge manufacturers know
that gauge standardization is impossible. Since this is true, the end result
is that this measurement becomes a comparison used by one shooter
rather than a consistent dimension used by many shooters. Given this
fact, they are free to open their tolerances up from gauge to gauge.
Anyone who understands tooling knows that it is much cheaper to make
a tool with a larger tolerance window.
Some of you might be saying, "Hold on a second, if the gauge can vary,
then how can anyone use CBTO successfully?" The answer is, since this
dimension cannot (or is not) standardized, the specific CBTO dimension
used by one shooter is critical; but this dimension is likely not to match
the specific dimensions of a cartridge shot by another shooter. "Huh?"
you say? Let me explain.
If you have one gauge and you are shooting one lot of bullets, you have
the ability to measure and adjust CBTO to get the most performance
out of your rifle. All of the dimensions using your gauge and bullets are
meaningful to your rifle. Testing to find the best CBTO is a key part of
getting the most precision from your rifle and handloads.
For example, suppose that your CBTO using a 308 Winchester is 2.110".
You take this to the range and it shoots like a "house a fire" (shoots
great). If you call your buddy up and tell him that he should try a CBTO
of 2.110" in his rifle, he will be grateful until he goes to the range.
When your buddy, who has a different rifle/chamber, is using a different
bullet (type or lot) and different gauge sets up his cartridge to have a
CBTO of 2.110", he will expect the same level of performance. But his
rifle doesn't shoot well at this CBTO dimension. You both are puzzled
until you try something.
You take your gauge and your bullets over to his house to find out what
he has done wrong. The first thing you do is you measure the CBTO
of his ammo. This is when you find the first problem. His CBTO is
2.074". Just as you start to give him a hard time for getting it wrong, he
pulls out his gauge and measures his ammo again. When he does it with
his gauge he gets 2.110". In this scenario, the difference is due to the
fact that your gauges are not the same.
155
Trying to sort it out further, you decide to load some of your bullets into
his cases with his seating die set up exactly the same. Then you should
be able to get the same measurement, right? You load one round and
take a measurement. With your bullet at his seater die setting, your
CBTO is at 2.093". When he measures this cartridge with his gauge
he gets 2.057". What the heck? Now you both are all over the place.
This second attempt to get things sorted out is thwarted by the fact that
the nose shape of your bullets is different than the nose shape of his
bullets. You both decide that this is a waste of time since the variation
is so much. How can something that varies so much be important to
performance?
This simple answer is that you have to apply it correctly and to your
rifle using your own gauge and your own bullets. The first step is to
establish the distance from the bolt face to the rifling. How is this done?
There are two most common ways, and neither is without difficulties.
The most consistent and accurate way is to load a cartridge purposefully
long using medium to light neck tension. This must be a dummy
cartridge with no powder or primer. Also, to achieve the proper neck
tension, you must use a sizing die with interchangeable neck bushings.
This won't work if you use only an expander ball to size your necks.
When you chamber the round and close the bolt, the bullet gets pushed
into the case. If you slowly open the bolt and remove the cartridge, it
should be a representation of the distance from your bolt face to where
the bearing surface of the bullet engages the rifling. The bullet may
pull back out of the neck if it is wedged too tightly into the lead angle
of the rifling. If you do this several times and come up with the same
dimension (within .005), you can call it good.
There are a few things you need to be aware of when using this method.
It is important that you use exactly the same bullet each time. Not the
same type of bullet or same lot, but the exact same bullet. If the neck
tension is light enough, you should not change the shape when you
pull it for another measurement. You also need to measure the COAL
to make sure the bullet moved in the first place. You may seat it long
thinking that your throat couldn't be longer than this COAL but find
out that when you do this check, the bullet doesn't move at all. This
indicates that either the bullet pulled back out when you opened the bolt
or the bullet was not out far enough to touch the rifling. Another aspect
of this method is that neck tension on the bullet will push the bullet into
156
the rifling. The resulting
dimension is not "just
touching" the rifling, but will
already be a slight jam.
The other common way
to get this dimension is to
use the Stoney Point (or
Hornady) Overall Length
Gauge. This is a device that
allows you to push a case
into a chamber that holds a
bullet in the neck loosely.
After the case is inside the chamber, you push the bullet forward with a
rod until it stops at the rifling.
You then tighten a screw into the rod to set the dimension. You remove
the device and get either a cleaning rod or small brass rod to put into
your muzzle to knock the bullet out of the rifling (since there is no neck
tension to pull the bullet out).
After you get the bullet out, you put it on top of the case with the rod
fixed into the locked position. This also gives you a representation of
the distance from your bolt face to where the rifling begins. However,
this method is not typically accurate for two reasons. The first is
because the case you use is not fire formed to precisely match your
chamber. This means that the end of the case is not likely in the precise
location as your bolt face. You can get one of your fired cases fitted
to go in the device but this is only good for that barrel/chamber and it
doesn't overcome the other problem with this method.
The other problem is that you can't fit your calipers directly over the
bullet nose and under the middle of the base of the case. Your calipers
must be at a slight angle when using this device. This will make the
dimension different from when you check a cartridge. Both methods are
better than nothing; but won't be precisely accurate; so you will need to
understand and make compensations for these shortcomings.
So now you know a close approximate dimension from your bolt face to
where your bullet touches the rifling using your bullets and gauge. It is
Figure 5: Hornady 'Lock-n-load', formally
known as the 'Stony Point Guage'.
157
from this starting point that you can tune your rifle very effectively (see
page 100 for Berger's recommended process to optimize seating depth
for precision). Whatever amount you make this dimension longer than
this starting measurement is a jam. If the starting dimension was 2.110"
and you change it to 2.120", you are using a .010" jam. If you change
your dimension to 2.090", you are using a .020" jump (as an example).
The key to this process is that you find which CBTO shoots best
in your rifle using your bullets and your gauge. It will take a bit of
effort to get this sorted out (especially if you haven't done it before);
but I can assure you that once you know and control this dimension
accurately, you will be able to obtain better performance from your load
in your rifle. It is important to remember that you can't ignore COAL,
especially if you want to feed through a magazine. However, if you
know your CBTO and then find out your COAL is 0.050" too long to
feed through a magazine, then you are equipped to decide what to do
next. If you must feed through the magazine, you will know for sure
that you will have to add 0.050" more jump (make the CBTO 0.050"
shorter) to get the cartridge into
your magazine. This may or may
not affect the rifle's performance
but at least you will have hard and
reliable data from which to make
decisions.
Benefits of having a uniform
CBTO
There is another aspect to knowing
your CBTO when checking
your COAL as it pertains to
performance. With good bullets,
tooling and carefully prepared
cases, you can easily achieve a
CBTO that varies less than +/-
.001"; but your COAL can vary as
much as .025" extreme spread (or
more with other brands). This is
not necessarily bad and it is much
better than the other way around.
If you have a CBTO dimension
that varies but your COAL
Figure 6: Zooming in on a bullet's
meplat reveals irregularities, which
are normal and prevent consistent
COAL measurements.
158
dimension is tight (within +/- .002), then it is most likely that your bullet
is bottoming out inside the seater cone on the bullet tip. This is very bad
and is to be avoided. It is normal for bullets to have precisely the same
nose shape, and it is also normal for these same bullets to have nose
lengths that can vary as much as .025".
This variation in nose length typically does not negatively affect
performance. The reason this is true is because as long as the nose shape
is the same from bullet to bullet, the only way a nose length variation
will negatively affect performance is if this variation in length has a
significant impact on the outside diameter of the meplat (pronounced
MEE-plah) or tip of the bullet. When it comes to Berger bullets, we
purposefully set our dies so that a variation in nose length has essentially
no impact on meplat diameter. The way we do this is proprietary,
but it is effective and makes normal nose length variation essentially
irrelevant.
Summary of Cartridge Base To Ogive (CBTO)
To recap the important considerations regarding bullet seating depth as it
relates to CBTO, we can say:
• CBTO is a critical measurement to understand for handloaders
because it's directly related to precision potential, and you
control it by simply setting bullet seating depth.
• Tools and methods for measuring CBTO vary, most have pitfalls
that you should think carefully about.
• A CBTO that produces the best precision in your rifle may not
produce the best precision in someone else's rifle. Even if
you have the same rifle, same bullets, same model of comparator
gauges, etc., it's possible that the gauges are not actually the
same; and measurements from one don't translate to the same
dimension for another.
• Once you find the CBTO that produces the best precision in your
rifle, it's important to allow minimal variation in that dimension
when producing quality handloads. This is achieved by using
quality bullets, tooling and properly preparing case mouths and
necks for consistent seating.
 

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Seating deeper expands the lede between the chamber and rifling. That extra throat is why pressures usually drop and the reason some handloaders determine pressure with lands contact before reducing OAL.

What you're describing is not apparent with most case designs.

What was the case and load details where you determined this?
The longer lede was the primary principle behind the Weatherby Cartridge design. The longer lede was a larger volume pressure vessel that was sort of an accumulator that buffered the peak pressure and smoothed the peak itself a bit. It made it more tolerant of the higher loading pressures in the cartridge design.
 
You absolutely don't need .284" of bullet engagement in that case neck. That's just some random crap someone came up with lol. Get that bullet up closer to the lands and see how it shoots. Try .010 off and .020 off.
Exactly. I made a .25 wildcat and used a 1/8" neck. It was based on a .270. Worked great.
 
The longer lede was the primary principle behind the Weatherby Cartridge design. The longer lede was a larger volume pressure vessel that was sort of an accumulator that buffered the peak pressure and smoothed the peak itself a bit. It made it more tolerant of the higher loading pressures in the cartridge design.
True. I have owned several Weatherby's and experienced what was marketed as "Freebore". The only 2 Weatherby's I owned without that Freebore were the .240 and .416 Wby's which had relatively standard throating.

Reading through Brian Litz' article, most of it is reasonably common knowledge, but I didn't see any contradiction to what I wrote. His segment covering pressures related more to cartridge OAL longer than SAAMI and his logic is fine. No argument from me.
 
Dont be afraid to try a larger jump. I know a lot of people will say somewhere between .015 - .03 off, which may yield good results. I just have also seen great results at .1 off.
 
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