Elk Terminal Performance Philosophies

All, I know that this topic has been discussed to death, but that is one reason why I'm asking. I'm seeing two well-reasoned but conflicting philosophies about what you should be going for in a cartridge for elk, and I'm hoping to take the debate to a step beyond where I'm seeing it. I came up in Philosophy 1 below but am now being pulled to Philosophy 2. The reason I ask is that I have never hunted elk and I need to make some decisions as I plan for the future which will hopefully involve elk hunting. I very much want to make sure that I'm set up for quick, ethical kills.

Please let me know if you think I'm captured the camps correctly and where you stand and why. Evidence is good. Please, please no ****ing matches.
One specific question is what Philosophy 2 thinks about non-ideal shot angles like quartering to or away ... should these shots not be taken or do they think that these are fine with proper shot placement?

Philosophy 1: Elk are big, tough animals, so you need to hit them with large mass, large diameter, tough projectiles that at impact are both moving at or above minimum expansion velocity for that bullet design and still carrying a minimum amount of energy (usually something like 1500 ft/lbs.). If you don't, you will have an unacceptably high risk of penetration, damage to the vitals, wound channel, and/or "wallop" to the animal that are insufficient to cause a quick, ethical kill. This is especially true for non-broadside shot angles. You will also get bullets not exiting, which can result in losing the animal (even if it dies quickly) because there is little or no blood trail.

• So, you need to look at caliber size, bullet mass, velocity, and energy. Shot placement is important but the above gives you considerable flexibility (or room for error) since the bullet will still provide good terminal performance from many angles and/or if the shot placement is off and/or if bones are hit. Maximum range is probably determined by where the energy level falls below the minimum.
• For elk, this means ~165+ grain bullets, at least for lead bullets. If the bullet is not of a tough construction (such as bonded or mono), then it needs to be of larger mass so that a shank will remain intact and continue penetrating if the front fragments.

Philosophy 2: Most or all modern high-powered rifle cartridges and big game hunting or match bullets will provide adequate terminal performance on big, tough animals like elk, as long as the shot placement is good and the bullet is moving at or above the minimum expansion velocity for that bullet design when it hits the animal. The diameter, mass, and construction of the bullet are not a material factor in the analysis ... nor is the energy at time of impact. These are all sufficient in these cartridges. Whether bigger caliber, mass, velocity, or energy lessens the chances of quick kills or non-exits is debatable, as there are plenty of examples of these outcomes with big, powerful cartridges like .300 WM. But even if there is a reduction in this risk, it is not to a degree that outweighs the increase in risk of poor shot placement due to inaccurate shooting (which is more likely with a big thumper cartridge with lots of recoil and blast). So, you should be looking at accuracy of your shooting (which will probably favor smaller cartridges with accurate bullets) and the range at which your chosen bullet will no longer reliably expand given its velocity out of your rifle (which will probably favor less tough, more easily expanding/fragmenting bullets), and then stay within the range of those two factors.

Elk guide here with around 100 guided Bull Elk hunts under my belt. Philosophy 2 is my personal stance. New elk hunters spend way too much time and money on rifles, cartridges, and bullets. Spend that time and money at the range, and in improving your physical fitness. Bring your 270 that you've had your whole life, and you'll be fine.

Any ole', .270 WSM at, "Warp Speed" ( 3,200 FPS ish ) With, Berger 140's, thru, the Lungs or Upper Shoulder, CNS, area,.."Gets It,.. DONE" !
Sold My, .338 Win Mag !!
I "Shoot", the .270 WSM,.. much, MUCH,.. BETTER !
Same goes for the 6.5 PRC,.W/ 140's, It's,. Deadly and Accurate at, "Reasonable" Elk,.. Ranges !
I wouldn't Feel "Under Gunned" even with,.. a .270 Win, using,.. the RIGHT, Bullet !
Two of the Biggest Bulls, ever shot, in Idaho, were Killed with, 6.5 Creedmoors ( Factory, 143 gr., ELD-X's ) by Women, at just Under, 400 yards !
IMO,. Accuracy and lots of, Field PRACTICE shooting, "Trump's" using, ANY,.. "Big Bore" !

Like previously mentioned, shoot what you CAN shoot most comfortably and accurate. With that said, limit your overall shooting distance based on caliber, bullet weight and most important shot presentation. I have learned the hard way…no more rushed or marginal shots. There is always another day.

257Tony said:

Elk guide here with around 100 guided Bull Elk hunts under my belt. Philosophy 2 is my personal stance. New elk hunters spend way too much time and money on rifles, cartridges, and bullets. Spend that time and money at the range, and in improving your physical fitness. Bring your 270 that you've had your whole life, and you'll be fine.

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Thanks. Do you think quartering to and away shots on a big elk are okay with good shot placement, if you're using a smaller cartridge (even if it's a match or hybrid type bullet like an eld-x or Berger hybrid)?

Interesting to hear from an elk guide. I think a lot of my thinking in line with Philosophy 1 came from Joseph von Benedikt. I was listening to a lot his podcasts. He likes to say he listens to what elk guides say and they say you need a 7mm bullet minimum, and .30 cal is better. The more I hear from guides the more I think they have a variety of opinions just like everyone else.

I'm not going to get into specifics in this thread because I want to keep this about the general principles, but for the past several years I have been thinking that I'll definitely have to get a new rifle that can deliver a bigger bullet if I'm going to hunt elk ... but as I started to reason through it I'm now looking more and more at the rifle I already have, for deer and hogs.

When I was booking my first elk hunt, I spoke with dozens of outfitters at the Harrisburg Show. I asked all of them what they recommended for a good elk cartridge. The overwhelming response was to select a 30 cal magnum of your choosing.

Use that advice for whatever it's worth.

Quartering shots are fine as long as you stay within range of your bullets terminal velocity. With quartering shot locations, shot placement is more critical regardless of caliber.

Actually….I disagree with both of your premises!

I agree with most of #2…..with the exception of the "match bullet" part.Oh, and when did the 300 WM transform into a "big, powerful cartridge"?

Pertaining to the bullet comment: if a bullet does not have the integrity to penetrate heavy bone without fragmentation, major weight loss, or deformation, all of which can severely limit penetration or it's ability to tract in a straight line……it should not be considered. It must also have and maintain adequate sectional density to facilitate that penetration!

The aforementioned match or hunting bullets designed for accuracy and dramatic expansion at reduced velocities (extreme long range) will work just fine with precision hits …..even at close range. But the "harsh reality" is not every shot is precise, animals move and hunters/shooters can make mistakes. Also, lest not forget, not all hunters have the privilege of passing on anything but the "perfect shot"! Some hunters have limited hunting opportunities, perhaps one in a lifetime….they need a bullet that is not "restricted" to that perfect shot!

I have health insurance because…… happens! memtb

Idaho Lefty said:

IMO,. Accuracy and lots of, Field PRACTICE shooting, "Trump's" using, ANY,.. "Big Bore" !

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Not if the bullet from the big bore is of adequate design and properly placed!

That said, historically "big bores" start at .40 caliber. Relatively few elk hunters are shooting cartridges greater than .40 cal! memtb

Philosophy 2.

If you aren't going to practice with a big magnum, then it's all but useless. BUT if you spend a ton of time shooting behind one and have it built right to manage recoil, it can be of benefit. Bigger wounds aren't a negative thing.

If you have a smaller gun that shoots great, and you shoot it great and are very comfortable behind it and pick the right bullet (Berger hybrids/VLD's or ELDM's), it'll kill anything with a well placed shot.

Broadside, slight quartering too or slight quartering away is fine with anything.

Hard quartering too, just shoot it in between the shoulder and the chest. Hard quartering away, I'm not shooting, with any cartridge/bullet. Personal preference of course.

I think an elk rifle needs to be tailored to personal parameters.

1) Elk are hunted from tidal swamps to the alpine. There are places if you won't take an angling shot you might just stay home, and places a big old RN comes up short.
2) Better bullets make more cartridges effective than 40 years ago.
3) Placement is about destroying vitals, pick a bullet that reflects your choice of placement. If you take a "Texas Heart Shot" vs the classic "in the crease" your needs may be different.

memtb said:

Actually….I disagree with both of your premises!

I agree with most of #2…..with the exception of the "match bullet" part.Oh, and when did the 300 WM transform into a "big, powerful cartridge"?

Pertaining to the bullet comment, if a bullet does not have the integrity to penetrate heavy bone without fragmentation, major weight loss, or deformation…..all of which can severely limit penetration or it's ability to tract in a straight line. It must also have and maintain adequate sectional density to facilitate that penetration!

The aforementioned match or hunting bullets designed for accuracy and dramatic expansion at reduced velocities (extreme long range) will work just fine with precision hits …..even at close range. But the "harsh reality" is not every shot is precise, animals move and hunters/shooters can make mistakes. Also, lest not forget, not all hunters have the privilege of passing on anything but the "perfect shot"! Some hunters have limited hunting opportunities, perhaps one in a lifetime….they need a bullet that is not "restricted" to that perfect shot!

I have health insurance because…… happens! memtb

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Thanks. So to clarify this, which bullets do and do not "have the integrity to penetrate heavy bone without fragmentation, major weight loss, or deformation" in elk in your view? I think that is where the disagreement with the Philosophy 2 crowd might be, though I'm not sure.

MoreSalsa said:

Thanks. So to clarify this, which bullets do and do not "have the integrity to penetrate heavy bone without fragmentation, major weight loss, or deformation" in elk in your view? I think that is where the disagreement with the Philosophy 2 crowd might be, though I'm not sure.

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As I mentioned…….I do not fully agree with either of your premises!


There are in fact several. Some bullets of "partition" or A Frame design can adequately meet that requirement. Most monos will easily meet that requirement, provided that the hunter/shooter does not forsake sectional density for the often sought after….."speed of light" bullet. "Light is not always right"!

The primary limiting factor when comparing most cup and cores to a limited expansion or mono bullet is velocity at impact. This plays right into your hypothesis that the ethical hunter (my term) must stay within the effective expansion velocities for his/her bullet. Much the same in that an ethical hunter/shooter should be capable of placing the bullet where it needs to go!

Have I adequately answered your question! memtb

i read way too many stories about guys thinking they need a 338 or larger on elk because they are such big tough game animals. then they go buy the biggest rig they can find and dont quite get it sighted in because it hurts too much to shoot. then they go out and miss at 50 yards because they are jerking the trigger and closing there eyes when firing anticipating the recoil.
like 257 tony said spend your time and money practicing with what you have and know your limitations.
i would much rather poke a hole and explode the heart or lungs than blow both shoulders up and waste all the meat.