Tightening up my long range reloads.

M

Maxoutmaze

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Joined
Aug 25, 2024
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8
Location
Regina, SK, Canada
I've got a powder charge with a great ES and SD but it was only a 1-1.25" grouping at 100 yards. My ES was 6.9 and SD 2.6 over 4 shots (Garmin Xero) with 59gr H1000 and 140gr ELD-M bullets right at the lands flying 3060 fps. What's the best way to tighten the grouping? I was thinking I'll make sure all my brass are proper lengths and anneal then back them off the lands in 0.015" increments until I get a good grouping? And if that doesn't work maybe try a different brand of 140gr bullets?

I currently shoot a 123gr ELD-M load with 57gr H1000. ES of 38 and SD of 11.8 only pushing 2970fps which isn't great but it puts 5 shots in one hole at 100 and hit 4/4 shots on 12"x16" steel at 880 yards. I would love to find a good grouping with the 140's since the node is at a higher velocity and the higher ballistic coefficient so all around should be a better long range load when I start pushing the distance out towards a mile.

Shooting a L/H Tikka T3 CTR in 6.5 PRC
 
ES/SD is not the most important factor. While it should be considered,I would take a .5" capable load with an ES of 20 over a 1.5" with an ES of 6 all day long.

You do need to test seating depth, then maybe primer testing, then neck tension. If those don't work, back to the drawing board. Don't get hung up on single digit ES. Change powder or bullet.
 
According to this article https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crim...S&cvid=9af54efac6ab4349d188fa53423798e0&ei=51 nodes are an illusion that appears because group size is too small. It takes 20-30 shots to really zero in on group size. Your bullet/powder combo either groups well or it doesn't.

Your 123 ELD-M/H1000 shoots great. It should shoot great at a higher velocity.

Your 140/H1000 isn't shooting as well. But have you shot 20-30 rounds for accuracy? How sure are you that it doesn't shoot well?
 
When you prep brass, do you chamfer inside the case mount and outside the case mouth. I have found that and annealing plus quality components are "easy button" for better groups.

Which brass are you using?

I would definitely try another 140ish projectile to see if that improves grouping. I would also try another powder.
 
Do you have other powder to try? I found Retumbo to shine with 140 class bullets like Sierra. Maybe drop down to the next lower node and work with seating or primers if you have to use H1000. I've just not had any luck with H1000 giving stellar groups in my 7RM.
 
One piece of advice.
I never shoot for groups (testing) and use a chronograph at the same time, it's irrelevant and causes questions that need not an answer.
Let the target tell you what the rifle likes first, then use the chronograph to verify.
I have a short course load (300 metres) for my 25-06, yes it is extremely accurate, that shoots all 10 shots into a ragged hole and has an ES of 100+fps. It doesn't matter at 300 one little bit, any further and vertical becomes an issue, but I don't shoot further generally.
ES/SD are NOT the be all, end all to a great load, this has been debated for years.
Points to address tightening of a group.
Primer testing is paramount.
Neck tension is paramount.
Seating depth is paramount.
The above 3 need addressing first in my opinion.
First is seating depth.
Second is primer testing.
Third is neck tension.
Last is powder charge and you can play with whatever increments you like, I do not weigh powder, I use volume in tenths of a CC after I have a baseline based on weight. I have weighed powder, loaded a batch, then come back the following day and had 2 full grains difference, looked at the barometer and determined the difference was humidity and air density, volume never changes…
It is barrel time that changes POI, the barrel being at the top or bottom of oscillation that tightens groups, within ANY barrel movement is when groups become unstable…

Cheers.
 
MagnumManiac said:
One piece of advice.
I never shoot for groups (testing) and use a chronograph at the same time, it's irrelevant and causes questions that need not an answer.
Let the target tell you what the rifle likes first, then use the chronograph to verify.
I have a short course load (300 metres) for my 25-06, yes it is extremely accurate, that shoots all 10 shots into a ragged hole and has an ES of 100+fps. It doesn't matter at 300 one little bit, any further and vertical becomes an issue, but I don't shoot further generally.
ES/SD are NOT the be all, end all to a great load, this has been debated for years.
Points to address tightening of a group.
Primer testing is paramount.
Neck tension is paramount.
Seating depth is paramount.
The above 3 need addressing first in my opinion.
First is seating depth.
Second is primer testing.
Third is neck tension.
Last is powder charge and you can play with whatever increments you like, I do not weigh powder, I use volume in tenths of a CC after I have a baseline based on weight. I have weighed powder, loaded a batch, then come back the following day and had 2 full grains difference, looked at the barometer and determined the difference was humidity and air density, volume never changes…
It is barrel time that changes POI, the barrel being at the top or bottom of oscillation that tightens groups, within ANY barrel movement is when groups become unstable…

Cheers.
Click to expand...
@MagnumManiac I am talking specifically for a long range build out to 1600-2000 yards not 300 yards. An ES of 100 fps will change your point of impact by 22 inches at 1000 yards so I would take a 1" group at 100 yards with an ES of 2.6 over my 0.3" group at 100 with an ES of 40. Just hoping I can get the 1" group down to ½" by messing with brass and seating depth.
 
Maxoutmaze said:
I I'll make sure all my brass are proper lengths and anneal then back them off the lands in 0.015" increments until I get a good grouping?
Click to expand...
0.015" is way too big of steps, 0.005" tops but preferably 0.003" and even less when you get close to where they are shooting good. Don't discount a primer change either . Most bullets have a general area where they like to jump like at the lands to -0.005" or 0.020' to 0.025 off. Check with Hornady and see what they can recommend for the 140, I'm sure they have done a lot of reloading with them and can give good advice.
 
Maxoutmaze said:
I've got a powder charge with a great ES and SD but it was only a 1-1.25" grouping at 100 yards. My ES was 6.9 and SD 2.6 over 4 shots (Garmin Xero) with 59gr H1000 and 140gr ELD-M bullets right at the lands flying 3060 fps. What's the best way to tighten the grouping? I was thinking I'll make sure all my brass are proper lengths and anneal then back them off the lands in 0.015" increments until I get a good grouping? And if that doesn't work maybe try a different brand of 140gr bullets?
Click to expand...
If your ES is good and your grouping is bad you have bad harmonics, dont adjust your powder charge adjust your seating depth or change bullets. .015" is too large, adjust no more than .005". You need at least 10 rounds to determine your ES/SD.
 

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