Large Rifle primer usage instead of 209 shotgun primer

JAYgs8163 said:

The entire system- breech plug design with a LRP primer and module is designed to effectively burn BH209 better. CVA even makes their own version but I don't believe it's as refined as the Arrowhead or the Hankins system.

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Yes, I've read that the CVA OEM plugs aren't great with BH209 but that the CVA BH209 plug solves the ignition issues. No reason, however, that a 209 plug won't give you the same ballistic results as a module plug. If shooting LRPs makes you happy, go for it.

Clutch said:

Yes, I've read that the CVA OEM plugs aren't great with BH209 but that the CVA BH209 plug solves the ignition issues. No reason, however, that a 209 plug won't give you the same ballistic results as a module plug. If shooting LRPs makes you happy, go for it.

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It makes me happy and I can burn more of it and cleaner. As I said originally, "to each their own". There's a significant design difference in both the Hankins and the Arrowhead plugs over the CVA. The powder in the Arrowhead is literally about a 1/8" or less from the primer flash hole in the plug, spark to powder ignition is instant! The Hankins is similar but ignition still has to travel about 3/8" to get to powder. The CVA has a multi sized flash hole and the ignition from the primer has to travel down 2 different diameters of flash hole plus it has to travel all half the length of the breech plug before entering the powder column and coming in contact with the powder. I've run all 3 and the proof is in the pudding. Of the 3 the Arrowhead is the best and resulted in the best consistency, accuracy and velocity. I can run more powder producing more MV.

I haven't really tested it, but I believe that 209 primers with 777 powder causes serious crud rings. I know that with #11 caps and 777 I don't get that crud ring. It could be that the rifle that shoots #11s has a hand lapped bore. I don't know, and the guy that built the Kahnkes is out of business.

i have a smokeless .45 woodman arms patriot with a brux barrel with the stock BP . i have had one of Mark Woodman adjustable BPs on my to get list since i ordered my patriot 1 1/2 years ago . i see now that Mark has added a LR/LRMP adjustable BP (in medium and high pressure) along with his 209 adjustable BP .

my patriot is NOT a big boomer designed for the HEAVY loads like Encore and Deputy here shoot , and i would not put my shoulder behind something like that , LOL . i've been using federal 209A primers with the stock BP and they are very difficult to find and so are CCI 209M primers . thinking about going the LRMP route because Marks adjustable BPs are the same price . for several months i've been looking for federal 209A primers (my preference) with no luck and didn't find any CCI 209m either . but i can find LR and LRMP primers .

anyhow ..... my question boils down to ..... when using an adjustable BP is there any reason i'd want to choose a 209 BP for for my smokeless ML over than a LR/LRMP system ? other than having to fiddle with the primer modules ? any tips on using those modules would be appreciated .i currently use n110 powder and 4198 (separately not duplexed) and i hope to find n120 to replace the 4198 and just stick with Vihtavuori powder .

thanks , jeff

My understanding of the primary reason to move away from the 209 was because the strength of the 209 can actually dislodge the powder/bullet package slightly before it actually ignites the powder so it results in a start/stop(or slow)/start evolution, which isn't great for accuracy, or velocity consistency. Not sure if that helps you, but that was the reason I decided to convert my smokeless and black powder substitute rifles to LRP primers.

B4tB if you don't mind my asking .... why didn't you try a less hot 209 like a winchester , cheddite or remington sts ? i just got into muzzleloading 2 1/2ish years ago so i'm not a seasoned ML user let alone a seasoned smokeless shooter . i'm not asking to question your choice but to better understand it . thanks , jeff

JeffB1961 said:

B4tB if you don't mind my asking .... why didn't you try a less hot 209 like a winchester , cheddite or remington sts ? i just got into muzzleloading 2 1/2ish years ago so i'm not a seasoned ML user let alone a seasoned smokeless shooter . i'm not asking to question your choice but to better understand it . thanks , jeff

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Well, a few reasons.

1. If you look at all of the premium muzzleloaders, and those being built by custom rifle builders, they all have an ignition systems that employ centerfire primers. Also, the guy that wins many of the comps (Jeff Hankins, Hankins custom rifles) runs large rifle primer set-ups, it seemed like the easy button, without having to do my own trial and error.
2. I have a bunch of large rifle primers and the 209s were not.very available when I was doing this research.
3. I like that the conversion kits take some sort of module that holds the primers and in many cases waterproof them to some degree. The 209 arrangements don't do that as well or as consistently across all platforms, my opinion.

thanks B4rT .
i was looking at vihtavoris page for their n110 and they say "The ignition is best with small rifle primers....." .
but that is for large and small pistol cases that have the powder directly on the primer . i don't know if that translates directly to our breech plugs that have a throat (forgive my ignorance for not knowing the proper name) that the primer flame has to travel through before reaching the powder .
thanks again ...

With light to moderate loads, the 209 ignition makes more sense. Less to fiddle with and no downside.

You prime the arrowhead modules on your bench, super easy. They literally are very easy to remove after taking a shot, with two fingers (after breaking in your new module) you can remove the module and push another one in. EasyPeasy, I can run 10-12 shots of Blackhorn before needing to clean and the rifle shoots best after a couple of fouling rounds. This on a CVA ACURRA LRX 45.

thanks folks . found out my gen 2 patriot cant use the adjustable lr/lrmp breech plug . but i can use the adjustable 209 BP . i also don't need the adjustable BP for the mild loads i'll be shooting but i will for heavier loads . gonna use mark woodmans smooth sizer . now i gotta decide if i wanna get a brick of federal 209a or remington sts 209 primers ....

JeffB1961 said:

thanks folks . found out my gen 2 patriot cant use the adjustable lr/lrmp breech plug . but i can use the adjustable 209 BP . i also don't need the adjustable BP for the mild loads i'll be shooting but i will for heavier loads . gonna use mark woodmans smooth sizer . now i gotta decide if i wanna get a brick of federal 209a or remington sts 209 primers ....

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209A